Dancing Through Barriers: Yamilée Toussaint’s STEM Revolution

Guy Kawasaki:
I’m Guy Kawasaki, and this is the Remarkable People podcast. And as you know, we're on a mission to make you remarkable. So we scan the world looking for remarkable people who can inspire all of us. And guess what? We found a very remarkable person. Her name is Yamilée Toussaint. I hope I got that right.

Yamilée Toussaint:
Yes, you did.

Guy Kawasaki:
I speak three languages. I speak English, Pidgin and French now. So she is the creator of an organization called STEM From Dance, and we will get into what that organization does. She's also 2024 CNN Hero, which is how we found out about her because I don't know, I must be on some CNN email.
Listen, they send this announcement of, "These are our heroes for 2024." And we look at that. We say, "We got to get her. We got to get her before NPR gets her sold." I hope we did. So with no further ado here is, Yamilée Toussaint, say hello.

Yamilée Toussaint:
Hi. So happy to be with you today.

Guy Kawasaki:
I am so happy you are here with us today. First easy question for you is you have a degree from MIT in mechanical engineering, right? When you first got to MIT and you started taking these mechanical engineering classes, how many women were in the class or what percentage of women were in those classes?

Yamilée Toussaint:
Yes. At the time I was there across the institute it was about Fifty/Fifty representation. However, in mechanical engineering, that's where you see a drop-off in women being enrolled. And then when you look at Black women, there were just two of us in my major, my year.

Guy Kawasaki:
Odd of how many people were in that major? Hundreds.

Yamilée Toussaint:
Maybe about 200 or so.

Guy Kawasaki:
So 1 percent.

Yamilée Toussaint:
Right.

Guy Kawasaki:
Recently we interviewed a woman. She was the only Black woman or maybe even the only woman, not only Black woman, in her medical school class. And it was a shocking revelation to her. How did you get so far in this technical subject that others didn't?

Yamilée Toussaint:
I reflect on that question a lot because I didn't feel like I would be that 1 percent. I just felt like I really loved math and science. I drew a lot of inspiration from my father. He was a mechanical engineer. I got to go to work with him a couple of times and the atmosphere of being surrounded by 3D drawings, and manufacturing, and factories, that was familiar to me.
And I also got a lot of joy as a child from dancing and playing the violin. And I do think that in the times when taking physics and calculus felt tough, there was this resilience that I feel like I brought to those classes because I've seen myself do hard things.
Dance is very challenging and I did it from four years old up until current day. And I think some of the confidence, the resilience, the persistence, the discipline that I gained as a dancer and a violinist, really helped to stick with it, when the going got tough. Looking around the room in my engineering classes and not seeing myself reflected and having that doubt, I feel like I had the legacy of my father and just that confidence that I built in other spaces to really help me get through.

Guy Kawasaki:
Now you cite in many of your interviews that by around the age of eight girls drop out of math. Why is that? What social or educational, or I don't know, whatever pressure makes them drop out of math by the young age of eight?

Yamilée Toussaint:
There are messages that are pervasive in society that say that girls are less likely to become an engineer, mathematician, et cetera. And they get those messages from, it may be adults in their lives who may subtly suggest that it's the boy, the family who's more likely to build a tower or break down this truck, or maybe it's in the shows that they watch and who's represented as a scientist or the leader in the room and even the toys that they get.
I know something I remember from my childhood, I have an older brother and my father made sure that whenever my brother got a truck, I got a truck too. But that's not always the case. Sometimes there's toys that are considered like girl toys and boy toys, and it's often the boy toys that are more engineering oriented that build spatial awareness, that's really important for being able to think as an engineer.
So there's all these messages that they get bombarded with and they start to internalize it and start to say that when they get to, let's say, a difficult math problem, the thought is, "Oh, I must not be good at math. I must not be a math person." Instead of thinking, "Maybe I just need to try a little harder or ask for help." And so that's where we get to this place where girls just start to count themselves out so early on.

Guy Kawasaki:
And where did you go to elementary school?

Yamilée Toussaint:
I grew up on Long Island, New York, so I went to a local elementary school, Smith Street Elementary School.

Guy Kawasaki:
And was that attitude there, so that despite that attitude, your father and you overcame that?

Yamilée Toussaint:
For sure. When I was a young girl, I found myself getting bored in class and the teachers didn't really know what to do about that. They even told me to stop raising my hand because they weren't going to call on me because they knew that I knew the answer. And so I had to turn to other sources to get that challenge.
And I think that did a few things. One, it helped me to see that I had to count on more than what I was getting in school. Also, just helped me to see, "Okay, there's something maybe a bit exceptional about what I'm able to learn and absorb." And also that's where I did find some stimulation from the conversation I was having with my father. Again, being able to go to work with him and not go to school was just such a treat.
And then being exposed by things that were just beyond what I felt bored at school I think was maybe the beginning of starting to realize that I'm capable of more and things that are challenging.

Guy Kawasaki:
So let me go off on a little bit of a tangent here because we have had several math professors on this podcast and one of them is a very controversial one. Her name is Jo Boaler from Stanford. Maybe you've heard of her. And there's this controversy about teaching math, it's now a woke subject because they're trying to create greater opportunities for girls and people of minorities to progress in math that it's going to reduce the fast track for White boys so that they can get ahead.
And there's all this incorporating social justice in math is a bad thing. There's all this controversy. So do you have any opinions about this? What's going on? How did math become a woke subject?

Yamilée Toussaint:
I became a math teacher after I graduated from MIT, so I wanted to learn more about the K-Twelve education system, and I specifically taught ninth grade algebra. And what happens is that algebra becomes this gateway course because it ends up determining the likelihood of graduation, of continuing on to do more advanced mathematics.
And so I found myself as a brand new teacher, confronted with the reasons why math can be a barrier and a gate and why it's really powerful that all students really excel at that juncture.
So concepts that are important to understand conceptually, that I think are just really critical in a young person's educational journey, that if not taught well, those concepts don't quite land and it makes it really hard to go on to do more things that are mathematical. And if you get stuck in math at ninth grade or even earlier, the chances of those students not continuing on to do things that are math oriented or STEM oriented start to diminish.
So when it comes to girls, to people of color, it is really important that not be the barrier that they can excel. And it takes really great teachers, it takes making math easier to understand. I personally found it so fun to teach algebra.
I think there's a lot of interesting ways to make it relevant, but a lot of teachers don't do that. They just teach the equations and such. I do think that it is an important subject and most others, but I have seen myself, students, their academic journey be stunted because of their challenge with math.

Guy Kawasaki:
So you mentioned that right after graduation from MIT you became a teacher. This is Teach For America, right?

Yamilée Toussaint:
That's right.

Guy Kawasaki:
So from the outside looking in, I think that is one of the more admirable organizations in America. So can you tell us how does Teach For America work? What was it like? I mean, MIT graduate, all of a sudden you're teaching teenagers algebra, you didn't get a master's in education, right? You went straight from undergraduate to teaching. Tell us about the Teach For America experience.

Yamilée Toussaint:
Well, for me it was transformational. And I will say that I believe that for my students it was as well. When I was approaching graduation from MIT, I was really passionate about moving forward in my purpose. I didn't want to just get the job that was expected of me and my major. I didn't want to do anything besides what I felt like I was particularly positioned and designed to do.
And I was inspired by going a social impact route, just like how can I apply engineering principles to solve social challenges that exist in the world? And there wasn't an easy pathway to explore that until I learned about Teach For America because I could learn about the educational system, have an impact in the lives of students and do it in a way that facilitated that transition from college.
And we went through some training over the summer and I know it was definitely difficult. I remember my first day stepping into a school building and I was fresh out of college, so I wasn't that much older than my high school students. And I just spoke to the power of a great teacher. I knew math very, very well, and I also knew how to make it relevant because I wasn't that far off from their age.
Definitely a learning curve in figuring out how to manage a classroom and command that presence. But eventually I was able to find that stride. I was able to build really great connections. I was able to take my class to a trip to Cambridge so they can visit Harvard and MIT, really broaden their horizons and be the maybe only engineer that they have met and not just met, they get to learn from me every day.
So I think that was just a really special experience for my students and for me, that is when I had the light bulb moment that led to me eventually starting STEM From Dance because I got to see firsthand how much young people can just really dislike math and not just young people. I think adults too.
I hear that all the time. "Hey, I'm not a math person. Somebody else calculate this bill." There's such an aversion to math. I think it was important for me to see it, experience it, hear it, to be able to think about what could that solution be to change how young people, especially young girls, experience math.

Guy Kawasaki:
And how long did you teach?

Yamilée Toussaint:
I taught for two years and then I transitioned to working for the organization, Teach For America, while I also simultaneously launched STEM From Dance.

Guy Kawasaki:
And tell me, how did the conversation go when you went to your parents? You said, "Yeah, guys, I just graduated from MIT and well, I think I'll go teach in Brooklyn," or something. I bet that went over really well.

Yamilée Toussaint:
They were very confused, especially since they were fresh off of paying my tuition, paid for the vast majority of my four-year tuition. So they were confused as well as other family members. Again, just really wanting to work in my passion. And nowadays, they get it and they are very thrilled with the direction I headed in. It did happen, they had to have a lot of faith in me and my judgment to be able to say, "Yes, go teach high school now."

Guy Kawasaki:
Was it a public school?

Yamilée Toussaint:
It was.

Guy Kawasaki:
Okay. Yeah. That's not exactly the path that Elon Musk and Mark Zuckerberg took, but okay. Now tell me about this concept of the connection to dance and STEM. Because for a seventy-year-old Asian man, I'm not quite clear how dance translates into STEM.

Yamilée Toussaint:
Yes, yes. Well, there's so many ways where these two worlds coming together brings about a really beautiful outcome. First like we discussed, we know that at the root of the reason why there are so few women and women of color in STEM careers is because at a young age, we said eight years old, they count themselves out. And so that's what I wanted to create a solution for is how do we get them at this young age to stay in?
And what dance allows is us to create an atmosphere where they don't feel shut out. We know that dance is a very common popular activity for young girls. So we use what they are already interested and already showing up to, already excited about to create a space where they can just laugh, move, connect, experience joy alongside STEM activities as well. So one of the activities they do with us is they make dance performances that incorporate aspects of STEM.
So that could be, for example, costumes that light up. Where they're making the circuit, they're learning about electricity. They get to program the circuit to do certain effects, like for it to turn blue every time they stomp their left foot. And so they're learning engineering, computer science principles, but it's through the lens of dance and the hook of making a dance routine more interesting and fun and exciting by making it light up.
And so there's other integrations that we do. So the use of dance again allows us to make an atmosphere where they want to walk into the door. I think our sweet spot is attracting girls who otherwise aren't showing up for robotics clubs. They're not going to the coding camp, but they're willing to come to STEM From Dance because there's dance involved. They can do something fun, creative, work in a team and while they're doing that, we're teaching them about relevant technology.
We have content that is starting to teach them about AI and how they can even integrate something like AI into dance. And so we're meeting them where they're at, having them do technical projects that involve dance, but then also using this as an opportunity to maybe just change the perception of STEM because they have this hesitation and this resistance towards math.
Even the word math or STEM, we're giving it a rebrand. We're saying STEM can actually be creative. It could actually be something that you incorporate to things that you actually want to do yourself. It can be something that is team oriented. It can be something that you could do while you're moving. And by really changing the connotation they have with STEM, we're helping them to again, stay in it, say yes to it, because that’s what we need for them to persist.
And as they continue to persist, we can show them more advanced concepts. They can go to other progress, be part of other things, but really we want to use dance to really show them what's possible, what they're capable of. And we've seen amazing results because of it.

Guy Kawasaki:
Is the entry point for STEM From Dance, your pop-ups, that how most people get exposed to it. So what happens when somebody shows up for a pop-up?

Yamilée Toussaint:
Yes. Our pop-ups, it's a one-day event in cities across the country where the girls can just show up for a day. And again, I love the times when the girl shows up who maybe her mom made her show up and she's really hesitant about STEM doesn't really want to do anything about STEM, especially on a Saturday.
But when they show up, they see the energy, they see the positivity in the room, the support, the camaraderie, and then they get to do little experiments, little activities with STEM, with dance. And we hope, and we have seen that, they walk away thinking, "Huh, that wasn't too bad.
Maybe I want to do more of this. Maybe I can take another step and come to another one," or come to one of our camps, have a club at their school, a STEM From Dance club. So that is the trajectory that we hope that they join us on.

Guy Kawasaki:
And in 2025, how do you now incorporate AI into STEM From Dance?

Yamilée Toussaint:
Such an important question. Ultimately, we want to recruit and train the next generation of innovators, and we believe that girls and girls of color should be part of that next generation. So because of that, we want to make sure that they are equipped with the knowledge, the skills, the exposure to what will be relevant when they will enter the workforce.
Given the rise of AI, that is increasingly important. We are looking at ways to take our signature approach, which is to make complex concepts and technologies more relevant and easier to grasp for girls eight to eighteen years old. And so that's what we're doing with AI.
We're looking at ways for them to tinker with AI tools, to get comfortable with things like prompting, to understand the underlying technology, and as they get older, be able to advance in the level of complexity that they have exposure to.
But also it's because the field is emerging. There's a lot in education that we're still figuring out about what it takes to equip, again, an eight-year-old, a ten-year-old, a thirteen-year-old with what they need to know about AI. So we're continuing to learn, but it is such a huge area of emphasis because we want to make sure that our girls of color are part of the conversation at the table, part of those who are leading because we need their perspective in what's being developed right now.

Guy Kawasaki:
And how many girls have gone through your program already?

Yamilée Toussaint:
It's about 4,000 and counting. I think what's exciting is that now that we are a larger organization, bigger team, more capacity, we're able to now accelerate the pace at which we are serving girls. So just this year alone, we're on track to serving over 1,000 girls and we're only growing from there.

Guy Kawasaki:
What's your financial model? Is it support from donations?

Yamilée Toussaint:
Yes, largely we're supported through philanthropy and essentially we can serve as many girls as the dollars that we raise. So a big part of making these experiences possible are the people, and the companies, and the institutions who have been investing in our mission over the years. At this rate, we're a multi-million dollar organization to be able to operate nationally and serve 1,000 plus girls a year, philanthropy is a big part of what it takes to make this possible.

Guy Kawasaki:
I don't want to be a downer, but I got to ask this question. Are you dependent upon support from the US government or Department of Education?

Yamilée Toussaint:
At this moment, we are not, which I'm grateful for in this moment where there's a lot of uncertainty around that funding stream. We're mostly fueled by companies, foundations, and individuals who give towards our mission. And then we also have some ways that we're able to generate income from the programs. But about 95 percent of our funding come from institutions and individuals that are not from the government.

Guy Kawasaki:
And is there any fear that this kind of program, even done by a company, the company is afraid of being aligned with such a DEI effort and will stop it just for the optics?

Yamilée Toussaint:
Going back to the moment when I started STEM From Dance, it was because I had the lived experience of being one of the few Black women in a room and saw the opportunity for what people like me can add, not just to a class, like an engineering classroom, but to the field. And so that's why I started STEM From Dance.
I still believe that mission is important. No matter what anybody says about something like DEI, like the mission is still needed and is important and we will continue doing that work. I think companies, regardless of what's on their website or what their values are, need to pay attention to this part of the workforce because it is these girls who have the ability to bring ideas that no one else will bring.
And we know there's so much research about how much more innovative a teen is when it's diverse and we need innovation. The need for innovation has not stopped. And so I think it's important that these companies really think about the full picture and what it means to support or not support the work that's happening in organizations like STEM From Dance, because we all need to work together to make sure that we have the solutions that we need for the future.

Guy Kawasaki:
And I need to ask you this because I'm so curious, but how does one become a CNN hero? Do they just call you up one day and say, "Yamilée, guess what? You're a CNN hero." How does that work?

Yamilée Toussaint:
You have to be nominated. Somebody from our board nominated me, and it's an open application on their website, so anybody can nominate anybody. And so they have a team who goes through all those nominations, I suppose my nominations arose to the top.
They reached out and they did quite a bit of due diligence. So they were speaking to staff, board, constituents, parents, really to make sure that the work that I guess I present is actually what takes place and that we're in good standing in all fronts, a very detailed due diligence process.
And then I got the call to say, "You are officially a CNN hero." And they came out to film the program in action, which was so cool to have the girls be part of that, to be doing their thing, but there's cameras around. So it was really exciting for them. I think they felt like they were CNN heroes as well. And it was just such a cool experience.

Guy Kawasaki:
Sounds like it's harder to be a CNN hero than a Supreme Court Justice. Let's not get into that. So now you're a CNN Hero. So when you get on the subway, when you go to restaurants are you recognized, are people sending you drinks and you getting all these bags from Hermes and how does this work?

Yamilée Toussaint:
Oh, some of the things you mentioned I would love, so folks can feel free to send those things my way. I'd say yes. I've had moments where people recognize me. I feel like one of the coolest things has been the process of we had to get out the vote, they were going to select one hero to be seen in Hero of the Year. So in the process of letting people know and asking for people to vote for me, I was able to come across my first grade teacher. She was voting for me.
People spotted me from high school who I haven't seen since high school. And it was just like the MIT Network posted about it, Teach For America. It was really cool to see all these people just rise up to support me. And now I feel like there's so many more people who know about STEM From Dance. I even got a message from somebody in Mexico that they watched.
I got such a sweet package from a teacher in upstate New York whose students watched the CNN Hero segment, and they wrote me letters about what it meant for them to see me on there. So those have been the things that have been really meaningful coming from the experience.

Guy Kawasaki:
Madisun and I, I don't know if we have or we will, but we're going to send you socks.

Yamilée Toussaint:
Yes. You sent them.

Guy Kawasaki:
For being a CNN Hero.

Yamilée Toussaint:
Yes. Thank you so much.

Guy Kawasaki:
So tell me something. So let's suppose that I'm like an eight, nine, ten, eleven, and twelve-year-old Black girl, and I'm listening to this podcast, although God knows how I got to them. But anyway, so let's just fantasize that they're listening to my podcast, and I want you to give them advice for life.
Now that you're out of MIT, you've been a teacher for two years, you've started this successful thing, you're a CNN Hero, etc. So there's this eight, nine, ten, eleven, twelve-year-old Black girl listening to this podcast and she's saying, "All right, this is my hero. Now what should I do?"

Yamilée Toussaint:
I'd first say what I wish I was told when I was young, which is to embrace what makes you unique. I remember feeling at a point, maybe I was at a disadvantage because I danced, I played the violin, I was into math. I just felt like my attention was divided and how unusual it is to be a dancer, but then also go to MIT, and almost just feeling like I was just going in these different directions.
And what I eventually realized is that all of these different parts of me made me unique and positioned me to do something that most other people wouldn't. And so I just would love to encourage your young listeners to not be afraid of those things that make them unique because that's where their power can come from.
That's also where a lot of my confidence came from to be able to endure these really hard experiences like MIT, starting a new business, trying to grow a business. I feel like a lot of that confidence came from knowing that I do have something unique to offer.

Guy Kawasaki:
And as you look back in your life, who are your greatest influences, you mentioned your father, but were there other people like the first grade teacher, or how did we get to this place besides your father and mother?

Yamilée Toussaint:
I described earlier how when I was young, I was bored in school. A bright spot, however, was a teacher named Mr. Herman. He led a small group of us that was called More Able Learners. So it was meant to be a gifted and talented program. And I got to go every Wednesday after lunch, and it was always the highlight of my week because that was a space where I felt like I really could be me.
I didn't have to restrain myself and not raise my hand. He did different challenges with us. We had a book contest and I read all the books and that's where we did some more science oriented things.
I don't remember the details of what we did in that room, but I just remember feeling like, "I am somebody that has good thoughts and is capable of being challenged and I am somebody that is intelligent and capable." Even though I didn't always feel that way in my classes, and I just am so grateful for that teacher because it shaped my identity as somebody who is capable of difficult things.
So the thought that, "Oh, I could apply to top engineering programs in the country," that thought, that confidence to do that I think it started with that identity that was formed at that age. So I would say that was an important influence.

Guy Kawasaki:
We have interviewed about 260 people now, and lots of people talk about this elementary school teacher, and that's true for me too. There was an elementary school teacher that absolutely changed the arc of my life. And if you're a teacher listening to this podcast, I hope you understand that there are people like Yamilée, people like me, that we really owe a great debt to you. And I just want to thank all of the teachers who are listening to this.

Yamilée Toussaint:
Yes, it's so true. Teachers play such a critical role. It's so unfortunate that we don't give them the flowers and the credit and the pay that they deserve. And I'd say what you just said is part of my thinking in wanting to create STEM From Dance because there are many schools in this country where students don't have access to excellent teachers.
That teacher that pushes you, that sees that talent, that knows their content, and at an expert level, and my hope, even one of the new programs we just launched, we call it Our Clubs.
It is equipping these teachers with the activities and the training to be able to bring the STEM dance integrated experience to their classroom. So we offer it at no cost to the teacher. They get to now host a STEM From Dance club in their school because sometimes the interest and the passion is there, but they just don't know how. And so that's my hope is that we can support those teachers in having what they need to continue being great at really raising this next generation of leaders.

Guy Kawasaki:
Alrighty, what more needs to be said? So I just thank you so much for being on our podcast and being an inspiration. Women, girls, actually everybody, but we need heroes. We need someone to say, "I want to be like that." And I think you provide such an important hero for young girls.
Madisun and I, just we're completely supportive of what you do. Thank you very much for being on our podcast, Yamilée, and the best of luck to you and your organization. Those of you listening, if you want to support Yamilée's work, it's called STEM From Dance. And go contribute there.
Then I want to thank you, of course, and Madisun, producer and co-author of my books, and also Tessa Nuismer, Jeff Sieh, and Shannon Hernandez, the sound design team. Believe it or not, Yamilée, there's a whole team behind me and I get a lot of credit, but they do all the work. I just want to give them a lot of credit.
Thank you very much, and until next episode, it's Guy Kawasaki, Remarkable People podcast. Mahalo and aloha.