Matt Abrahams: Think Faster, Talk Smarter

Guy Kawasaki:
I'm Guy Kawasaki and this is Remarkable People we're on a mission to make you remarkable and helping me in this episode is the remarkable Matt Abrahams. Matt is a lecturer in organizational behavior at Stanford University's Graduate School of Business. He teaches popular classes on strategic communications and effective virtual presenting.
Matt has been recognized for his teaching excellence. He's received the Stanford Graduate School of Business Alumni Teaching Award and the Larsen Lam Family Lecturer Award. Matt is the author of Speaking Up Without Freaking Out: 50 Techniques for Confident, Calm and Competent Presenting.
And today we'll be discussing his latest book, Think Faster, Talk Smarter: How to Speak Successfully When You're Put On the Spot. So many people worry about speaking to large groups, but if you think about it, we speak to just one person or smaller groups much more often. This episode will help you be a better communicator in these circumstances.
I'm Guy Kawasaki, this is Remarkable People. And now here is the remarkable conversationalist, Matt Abrahams.
My favorite moment in your book, and I think a moment that is going to reframe my thinking, okay, that powerful moment is that I give a lot of presentations and a lot of them have Q&A and I have a love hate relationship with Q&A because it's a crap shoot. Inevitably, somebody comes up and starts telling his ten-minute life story and then finally you say, "Is there a question here?"
And they often ask really difficult esoteric questions that need more like a psychiatrist than a keynote speaker. But when you said that, think of Q&A as the person trying to have a good moment with you, that just clarified everything for me. I understand that now. It has reframed my thinking about doing Q&A.
Matt Abrahams:
That's wonderful. I have had the same experience you do where you're getting questions, what is happening in front of me? And I had the same shift that I had to make and understand that the person is really trying to connect with you.
And they might not know how to do it, or they might not be able to articulate it clearly, but it's an opportunity to have that good moment, to have that connection, to find a way to learn from each other and to collaborate. And I now lean into Q&A because of that, because of the opportunity to see where it takes me. And it's a lot of fun and I hope you try it out and have good success with it.
Guy Kawasaki:
I read your book last night and so I'm trying to figure out when my next speech will be and I'm going to emphasize Q&A.
Matt Abrahams:
Good.
Guy Kawasaki:
So I realized that your book is about this kind of informal, unplanned, unscripted presentations, but I'm not going to limit myself to that. When I speak to a communications expert like you, I just want to ask everything I want to ask.
Matt Abrahams:
Happy to take the questions.
Guy Kawasaki:
All right. Do you prefer, as a format for fostering communication, the formal speech or the fireside chat, which is better?
Matt Abrahams:
I think people vary on this and it has to do with your openness and willingness to let things be freeform or not. Many of us, especially if we're nervous or novice on the topic, we like to have a sense of control. If there's a strict timeframe where we have to get the information across, then a presentation affords us some of that. I personally like conversation and fireside chats, for the very reason that we talked about it, it allows for a lot of good moments to happen.
I also really enjoy Q&A, so much so that when I structure my formal presentations, I turn them into self Q&A. So I'll start by saying today I'd like to discuss three questions with you, and then I'll ask the question, I'll answer it and then I'll move on to the next question. So for me, an interactive inquiry-based communication works best. Not everybody is that way. So you have to be flexible so you can adjust and adapt between the two types.
Guy Kawasaki:
Okay, that is a second scales removed from my eyes moment. So I never thought of that. I could say today I'm going to answer for you three questions. And question number one is this. I love that.
Matt Abrahams:
And so it allows you to be conversational.
Guy Kawasaki:
You single-handedly, in the last twenty-four hours, have doubled the quality of my speeches, I swear to God. And I use a top ten format. So I'm going to just say, "I'm going to answer ten questions for you today."
Matt Abrahams:
And Guy, I've seen you speak, you're an amazing speaker. So anything I can do that you think will help you makes me feel really good, but you do super well engaging.
Guy Kawasaki:
Thank you very much for the kind words, but that is brilliant. I think a lot of people listening to this, they're going to say, "Guy, what the hell are you talking about? What's such a big breakthrough about asking yourself questions in the keynote to make your own Q&A?" But trust me, you listeners, that is a brilliant insight. I wish more people would do that.
Now in this fireside chat situation, it seems to me a lot of it is dependent upon the host, and how do you influence the host to quit asking you the damn-ass questions and do you give them the question, what do you do to try to foster a better fireside chat?
Matt Abrahams:
Yeah, I spend a lot of time helping people with panel presentations, formal presentations, pitches, those kinds of things. And a lot of it has to do with the prep work. So if you're being a panelist or somebody who's being interviewed in a fireside chat, try to talk to the person in advance and understand what is their goal for the interaction, what do they want to get out and what do they hope that their audience gets out of it?
And then I am pretty directive. I say, "If those of your goals, here's some things I think I can share that would be helpful. What do you think?" And so I try to direct them without saying, here are the five questions I want. And I certainly don't want these five, but I try to guide them that way. So that's the work before.
Now, if in the midst of it, and I'm sure you've been in these circumstances as have I, people start asking you questions and you're like, this is either not really a question or this is something that really doesn't make sense, I'll actually help them reframe the questions and I'll say things like, another way I look at what you've just asked is this.
And then I form the question and answer it myself. So I try to do it politely through paraphrasing and reframing to help them get back on track. But the pre-work is really where I think the gold is in helping in those situations.
Guy Kawasaki:
And when you are actually in a fireside chat, do you believe that you should be looking at the host or at the audience when you answer?
Matt Abrahams:
I love this question because so many people when they're doing panels or fireside chats, make it just a conversation between the moderator or interviewer and the panelist or fireside chat guest. It's about the audience. You don't want the audience simply watching a tennis match where they're just going back and forth.
You need to engage them. And I think the answer to your question comes from the words you use. When I answer questions, I'll say things like, "As everyone knows, or as many of you have experienced." And when I use that language, it invites me to look at the audience and even gesture towards them. So I bring them into the conversation.
If you ask me a very specific question, I might say, "That's something I've experienced. And I'm certain many people here have." In fact, sometimes I'll even take a poll. I'll say, "How many of you have had this experience?" So I get them engaged. So it's not them just watching the conversation, they're part of it.
So the answer to your question is, you use language, an inclusive language to guide where you look. So I then am looking at the audience and when I'm done with my answer, I'll come back to the question asker or moderator and move on from there.
Guy Kawasaki:
Okay, more brilliance. When I've moderated panels, when I ask the panel a question, I purposely look out at the audience and I don't make eye contact with the panelists so that they cannot look at me and answer to me. I force them to not look at me because if they look at me, they're going to just see the side of my face.
Matt Abrahams:
I think that's a great idea. I think that's very helpful, and you as the moderator are guiding them where they should put their attention. And I think that's great. And I would as the moderator or the interviewer beforehand, tell them, say, "I want this to be a connection with the audience.
You don't need to look at me." And you can also, it's where you position yourself as well, where you sit. So if it's a big panel sitting perhaps on the end encourages them to look out because it's really hard to crane your head over to look at where you might be sitting.
Guy Kawasaki:
Okay. God, I love these kind of interviews where it's so tactical and practical. I hope people are taking notes. So what do you consider harder, a planned speech, a keynote speech, or an extemporaneous answer?
Matt Abrahams:
To me today where I am based on my experience and age, I actually like the more spontaneous things. And if I'm ever given a choice, I try to go in that direction. But I realized that's the result of a lot of practice that I've had and a lot of experimentation and mistakes and growth. For many people, a planned presentation is nerve provoking enough and let's work there where we have a bit more control.
But the reality is most of our communication is spontaneous. It's impromptu. It's in the moment. Someone asks a question, asks for feedback. We're making small talk. So learning to be more comfortable in those spontaneous moments helps you not just when you're up on a stage, but when you're just interacting in life. Most of our professional and personal interactions are spontaneous.
They're not planned pitches, presentations or meetings with agendas. So we all have to work on, and the good news is that you can get better at the spontaneous stuff, but you have to work at it.
Guy Kawasaki:
And is there a super set? If you're good at formal presentations, you'll be good at spontaneous, or if you're good at spontaneous, you'll be good at formal, or they're two distinct skills with very little overlap?
Matt Abrahams:
I think it's a Venn diagram where there's a fair amount of overlap, but it's not always the case. I know some amazing speakers who can command a room, but when they go into Q&A or they're having one-on-one interactions and small talk, they're not very confident and they don't come off as professional and profound as they do on the stage.
So too, there are many people who just have that gift of gab and they're able to really connect and small talk and introducing themselves, but when they get up on stage, it's really challenging. So there are a subset of skills that transfer to both, but just because you're good at one doesn't mean you're good at the other.
Guy Kawasaki:
Okay.
Matt Abrahams:
That's why we have to work on both.
Guy Kawasaki:
Now, let's say you gave a formal speech and then there was Q&A. Now you're done with the Q&A. Do you just end with the answer to the last question or do you summarize and say, "Okay, I gave you a speech, I did this Q&A, now let me just rehash or let me summarize," is there a closing statement or you answer the question, you say, thank you very much, and you walk off?
Matt Abrahams:
You absolutely need to wrap up. I believe you start with gratitude. Thank you for your time, thank you for your questions. And then you have a one or two sentence wrap up. You never know if your last answer is going to be a good one, nor do you know if the question was a good one. We know from science, specifically psychology about primacy and recency effects. People remember what they hear last.
And if what they hear last is a mediocre answer to a mediocre question, they're going to remember that. So really end with an exclamation point. Express gratitude, say, "Thank you for those questions. I hope you leave here with," and then come back to that central point. I think it's a strong punctuation and it's something you can prepare in advance. You know what your key point was in the presentation, revisit it.
Guy Kawasaki:
So I want to know, who is in the Matt Abrahams Hall of Fame for spontaneous conversation? Who do you point at and say, my God, that guy or that gal has really got this wired?
Matt Abrahams:
Clearly, I think the master, the grandmaster of spontaneous communication was Robin Williams, just an amazing person, not just in his comedy. I enjoy his comedy very much, and I've spent a lot of time looking at and listening to his interviews, even the ones that were very serious and just the ability to formulate thoughts and support those thoughts. It was amazing.
But there are a lot of other people. One of my favorite speakers is a young woman named Brittany Packnett. She is a dynamo in planned speaking, but also just in Q&A skills, just brings herself fully, has lots of confidence and has an important message, which happens to be about confidence. But there are many people, politicians, as hard as it can be to look at and listen to them sometimes, they can be very good at that spontaneous speaking in a way of connecting.
So there are lots of good role models. Oprah Winfrey is amazing in her question, asking and answering. So there's some very accessible people that you can watch to see what they do. But the one thing all of these folks do is they connect first. It's really about being present. It's about connecting and listening and then responding appropriately. And you can find that in many people.
Guy Kawasaki:
Okay, so two offshoot questions from that. So first of all, you said politicians, tell me who you think is a politician or multiple ones that are good at this.
Matt Abrahams:
Bill Clinton, regardless of your politics, I think was very good at connecting with people and making you feel like you were being directly spoken to. And something that was being said was very immediate in that moment, regardless of if he'd said it several times before.
And I don't know if you counter as a politician or not, but Michelle Obama has an amazing ability to connect and to be really present with people and to respond in a way that makes you feel that special connection. So those are two that I call out all the time.
Guy Kawasaki:
Okay, so let me ask a very specific question. Who is the best Republican at doing this?
Matt Abrahams:
Oh, you're putting me on the spot. I tend to shy away from politics and politicians. And he used to be a Democrat, so maybe, but Mitt Romney actually, I had the opportunity to see him speak in person. And he has that same ability to just have this presence, and he's got a presence physically, you feel him in the room because of his size and voice. He's really good at also connecting.
And he does something that at in the situation, I saw him, before he speaks and connects, he'll pause, and he really looks at you and then he starts speaking. And the amazing connection that happens in that fraction of a second. A lot of us just start talking. We feel this sense of urgency in these moments to start speaking and there's a slight pause, a slight connection, and I was really impressed by that.
Guy Kawasaki:
Then I'm going to ask you opinion of something that I do.
Matt Abrahams:
Yes.
Guy Kawasaki:
I have followed many speakers. I've seen many speakers and the more famous you are, the more detached you are. And to take an extreme example, I once saw Sheryl Sandberg. And Sheryl Sandberg, she travels with practically the Secret Service.
She has a personal assistance, personal assistance, she has a bodyguard, she has a bodyguards' bodyguard, she has a driver and a driver's driver. And she has a PR person and a PR person's PR person. There's like a contingent of twenty-five people and they tell you not to look into her eyes, don't make eye contact, and it's all this whole bullshit.
And I have the opposite attitude that when I make a keynote speech, I go into the audience before the speech and I'll take selfies, I'll sign autographs, I'll do whatever they want because when I start my speech, I want to look down in the first few rows and I want to see people smiling at me and relating to me because I just took a selfie with them.
Matt Abrahams:
I have the same approach you do. I like to talk to the people in the room. I like to learn a lot about them. This is also a way that I help manage the anxiety that I can feel. When I connect with people, I realize one, that these are good people who believe I have some value to bring, and it helps me be present oriented. I am somebody who can get into my head and worry about this or worry about that when I'm speaking. And if I'm talking to somebody, I have to be very present oriented.
I am of your ilk. I like to do the same thing. Sometimes I'm precluded from doing that just because of the environment and the venue. So I actually go backstage and talk to the stagehands and to the other people. I really try to find people to connect with. It puts me in a good present moment space and reminds me that there's value in what I have to bring and that excites me.
Guy Kawasaki:
I'll give you another something that I do, and I did it particularly pre-pandemic when I was making a lot of in-person speeches. So I would carry my own Countryman E6, and I would go to the AV people and I say, "Listen, I brought my own Countryman. I want to use a Countryman."
And it's not so much that I insisted on a Countryman or insisted on a lavalier, but I think that when you go to the back of the room and you go to those AV people and you bring your own Countryman, in their minds they're thinking, this guy really knows his shit. This guy wants a really good sound. We should make him successful as we can. And that's why I carried a Countryman.
Matt Abrahams:
I really like that approach. I have always appreciated theater. I am not willing to perform. I'm happy to get up and speak, but performing is not my thing. So I used to do sound and lights when I was in high school and even in college.
So I always try to connect with these folks just because I like the people that do that. I love this idea of bringing your own technology and signaling that, hey, I know this stuff and I want to make this a great experience for everybody in the room. And you're implicitly saying, "You can help me do that." I think that's great. I love that you do
Guy Kawasaki:
That. Now, circling back to something you said about making a connection, Oprah Winfrey making a connection, et cetera. So of course the obvious question is how do you make that connection?
Matt Abrahams:
Yeah, you're a good example of this. You have to be curious. It's all about curiosity. Curiosity and empathy are the way that we connect. And through that curiosity, through that empathy, we understand what's relevant and salient to people. That's about the mindset and approach. I'm curious. I want to learn. When I do a presentation, when I teach, it's all about the learning and the learning exchange that happens. So it's not just me teaching, it's me learning from the audience.
Tactically, there's some things you can do to really connect, use people's names, use inclusive language. You, us, we. I worked with a very senior leader at a very large tech company that you would know, and he was getting up to give a keynote and he started by saying, "Knowledge workers must blah, blah blah."
And I stopped him time out. I said, "Who are you speaking to?" He said, "Knowledge workers." I said, "So why don't you say you?" It's very disconnecting. So using inclusive language, using gestures, orienting your body towards the person. Using language that invites people to co-create something with you. So for example, say, what would it be like if, imagine, picture this, that kind of language co-creates a connection.
We together are envisioning that same thing. So there are very tactical things you can do in terms of body posturing, language you use that foster that connection. But it comes from the approach of curiosity and empathy.
Guy Kawasaki:
One thing when I first started reading the book, I was scratching my head a little bit because I was saying to myself, wow, he's making you do so much preparation work and so much planning for something that's supposed to be spontaneous. You're telling me I have to go through all of this in the off chance that I go to a staff meeting and the off chance that my boss asked me to answer a question, are you serious? Are you supposed to do all that just in case something happens?
Matt Abrahams:
I'd like to address the second part of your question and then the first part, this will absolutely happen. Every day, you are experiencing many spontaneous speaking situations. So this is not the one-off. This is yeah, maybe your boss will ask you a question and that has high significance, but the colleague that you walked to the meeting with who asked for feedback about the previous meeting, same situation.
Maybe the stakes are different, but it sure would be good to feel comfortable in that moment. We are always spontaneously speaking. So preparing to do that I think makes sense.
Now the book lays out a six step methodology. It is ideal if you go through all six steps, but any single one of those steps will help you be more comfortable and confident. So at first it can seem like that's a lot of work, and it seems counterintuitive to prepare to be spontaneous. But think of this, any sport you've ever played, any athlete spends a lot of time doing drills and working out so that in the game that happens spontaneously, they can respond well.
And I firmly believe that the investment time you put upfront saves you tremendous amount of time on the backend where you have to fix your faux pas. Say it again because people didn't get it and you weren't clear. So there is an investment just like in any skill, if you learn to play an instrument, learn to play a new sport, but it is well worth it and helps save time on the backend.
Guy Kawasaki:
So why don't you give us the gist of this preparation work, this six steps?
Matt Abrahams:
Sure, happy to do so. The six steps fall into two major categories, mindset and messaging. When it comes to mindset, there are really four things we have to do. First, we have to manage our anxiety and I provide lots of techniques that are based on academic research to actually calm ourselves down. Most people feel anxiety in communication. The level of intensity and the type of communication varies, but there are things we can do to manage that anxiety.
Second, we have to see these circumstances as opportunities, not threats. When you go into a meeting and you know your boss is going to ask you questions, many of us feel very threatened by that. I have to defend my position. We can reframe that and say, this is an opportunity to show what I've done, to connect, to learn from my boss. That mental shift can really help.
Many times in these circumstances, in all communications, we want to be perfect. We want to communicate perfectly. I've been doing this for many decades. There is no right way to communicate. There are better ways and worse ways, but there's no one right way. And putting all this pressure on ourselves makes it harder to actually get the communication across.
We are taking that limited cognitive bandwidth we have, and we're splitting it to pay attention to what we're saying, how we're saying it and judging, versus investing it all and actually connecting and getting our information across.
And then the final mindset portion is listening. Listening is critical to effective communication. If we don't listen well, which many of us don't, we only listen for the top line. We need to listen for the bottom line, that can help us then respond appropriately. So that's mindset. Messaging from my perspective is about two things, structure, having a clear framework rather than just listing and itemizing information.
Our brains don't do well when they're overloaded with information. So structuring it, packaging it up can really help. And then the last part of this is making it focused. Many of us say much more than we need to. I believe the most precious commodity in the world today is attention. And if I ramble on in an unfocused way, I'm making it very hard for you to focus your attention.
Guy, my mom has this famous saying, I know she didn't create it, but it's tell the time, don't build the clock. And many of us when we communicate our clock builders, and so having a structure helps you focus and makes it easier for your audience to understand. So if you take any one of those steps, I firmly believe you will be better in your communication. If you apply multiple steps, you'll even be better.
Guy Kawasaki:
I love it. I love it. Yesterday, I reviewed somebody's pitch. And I have this famous Guy Kawasaki ten, twenty, thirty rule of PowerPoint, ten slides, twenty minutes, thirty point font minimum. And I got to tell you, Matt, everybody who I review their pitch, they say, "I love ten, twenty, thirty rule," and then they show up with twenty-five slides, sixty minutes and twelve point font complete sentences.
And I'm saying to myself, what the hell is happening? You told me you read ten, twenty, thirty, you show up with fifty, fifty, seventy. What is the problem? That's about structure, right? I think people don't understand that structure sets you free. It doesn't hem you in.
Matt Abrahams:
Absolutely. 100 percent. I've learned this in many areas of my life. If you've ever done anything with improvisation that improv is not a free for all. They're following very specific rules. I have been fascinated by this notion of how structure sets us free. I've looked into jazz musicians.
Two things that were fascinating. I talked to a playground designer, somebody who designs playgrounds, and they literally have play structures, but they structure the play structures in such a way to guide the kids through the experience. So it's not just a free for all. They actually have a logic to it.
I interviewed the gentleman who is in charge of Lego, the bricks, their manuals. Well, I've been fascinated by Lego manuals forever because they have no words. And yet when you compare them to other manuals from countries nearby like Ikea, night and day, the power of a clearly well-structured document. And what he told me, which I found fascinating, is Lego manuals have a structure to them.
If you think about it, each step in a Lego manual could be exactly the same thing, same number of bricks, same number of steps, but instead, they vary that, so you have an emotional experience as you go through it. The structure sets the person building it free to do these creative things rather than being very regimented saying you will do this number of steps along the way.
I totally agree. Structure sets you free. And I love your rule and I encourage people to apply that rule to their slides and to their pitches. I think people can appreciate it, Guy, but when they get in front of you, they want to show more detail than they probably need to.
Guy Kawasaki:
I keep telling people, it's the glance test. And the glance test I learned from Nancy Duarte, which is people should glance at your slide, understand it, and then start looking back at you, not stare at the slide. And then yesterday I told this guy, "You gave me Microsoft Word, the wysiwyg print format. I want you to switch to outline. I just want to see the outline. I don't want to see the whole text."
And then when I read your book, I read that page about how Google can describe their business in twelve words. So I took a picture of your book, of that page, I sent it to him. "If Google can describe their entire business in twelve words, how the hell is it that you need twenty slides to describe your business? I don't understand that." But, we'll see what he says.
Matt Abrahams:
Yeah, I actually had a similar circumstance. So I teach at Stanford's Business School and I sometimes work in these programs where they bring in groups of entrepreneurs. So I was doing this program where there were twenty-five entrepreneurial teams, and they gave me thirty minutes with each team to help them in their communication.
And I would ask these teams, I would say, "Well, you got thirty minutes. Help me understand what you do." Because I'd never met these people. And it would take them twenty, twenty-five minutes to explain. So I'd end up with five minutes to coach them. So I finally came up with this way to do a quick elevator pitch. It's four sentence starters.
And if they just answer those four sentence starters, it gives me enough information to help. I ask them to finish these sentences. What if you could, so that, for example, and that's not all. I think anybody pitching a business or pitching an idea, if you answer those four prompts, you give a tight clear answer.
Guy Kawasaki:
Yeah, I love that.
Matt Abrahams:
What if you could, so that, for example, and that's not all. And it can really help give clarity because you're right, the glance test, I call it the billboard test, like you're driving down the freeway and you look at a billboard, you should be able to tell what it means quickly. You got to be able to do that with your pitches, with your ideas and meetings. Otherwise, people tune out.
Guy Kawasaki:
I'm going to rip that off from you too. The metaphor that I use, I tell people that you are in an airplane. There are two kinds of airplanes. One airplane is an A380 or a 787. Another is an F-16 on a carrier deck. And I want you to be Tom Cruise taking off from that carrier deck. And if you don't get off the deck in 150 meters, you fall in the ocean and you die.
But you are that guy, Captain Sully, and he couldn't get the airplane. Also, he had to land in the East River. That's what you do. You need two miles of runway and you land in the river. So be Tom Cruise. I think they take it as an insult.
Matt Abrahams:
Excellent. I love it. Top Gun is what it's all about instead of taking that long launch time. Absolutely, absolutely. I love the analogy. You can take my pitch formula, I'm going to take that analogy because that's exactly what we need.
Guy Kawasaki:
One thing I learned from Steve Jobs is you have to know what to steal. That in itself is a skill that people don't appreciate.
Matt Abrahams:
That's right. And I think AI is an interesting venue for people to practice that lesson; what do you take and what don't you take.
Guy Kawasaki:
Oh, tell me more. How would you, okay, this is a very good question. How would you use an LLM to improve your spontaneity in conversations?
Matt Abrahams:
Great question. Great question. And I actually instruct and encourage my students to do this. Let's imagine, we'll just take a job interview. For example, let's imagine you're going to interview with a company, go to your favorite LLM and type in interviewing for this role at this company with somebody in this position. Give me five questions that allow me to demonstrate my capabilities in X, whatever it is.
And it'll spit out questions. And as it does practice answering the questions, not to memorize, but just to get agile at answering questions. An athlete has an opponent who will do the defensive moves or the offensive moves so they can practice defense. Use an LLM in the same way. If you're a non-native speaker to the language that you're going to go to a cocktail party in, maybe ask it to generate some questions for a cocktail party following a keynote address by Guy Kawasaki.
And it'll come up with some interesting questions that you can answer. I think an LLM can really help. Again, the goal though isn't to memorize your answers. The goal is to drill the answering.
Guy Kawasaki:
Oh, that's another thing worth ripping off from you. You have the highest quotient of stuff to rip off in anybody I've interviewed.
Matt Abrahams:
I don't consider it ripping off. I'm a teacher. I want people to use these skills. Go for it.
Guy Kawasaki:
But rip off is more dramatic term.
Matt Abrahams:
I'm curious, Guy, how would you use an LLM to help in your communication? You do so much communication and you're so creative. I'm curious, how would you use it to help?
Guy Kawasaki:
Until sixty seconds ago? I never even considered using it to help.
Matt Abrahams:
Okay, all right.
Guy Kawasaki:
I swear to God, that question just popped into my brain. I never considered an element.
Matt Abrahams:
I'm going to give you homework. I would love to get your insight into how you could use it and to hear from you because I'd love to be able to get up in front of my classes and be able to say, "Hey, Guy does this with an LLM to help in his communication."
Guy Kawasaki:
I could think offhand that, let's say that I was giving a speech about innovation and I went to ChatGPT and I said, "Give me examples of companies who did not embrace the future and died because of it." And then the LLM will say, Kodak, Blockbuster, Smith Corona, Remington Rand. And then it would come up with some example you never heard of. And I would take that.
Matt Abrahams:
Exactly. And actually, you're highlighting another really effective use of it that I encourage for my students. One of the things that can help you in spontaneous speaking is to stockpile ideas, stories, anecdotes, facts, that you can then pull in. At the highest level, the analogy I will often use for what my approach to spontaneous speaking is all about, it's like cooking.
A structure is a recipe, and the best chefs in the best restaurants can prepare their meals quickly because they prepared a bunch of stuff in advance. They have everything chopped and sauteed and ready. They have the recipe; they just assemble it.
So you can use an LLM to help you come up with examples and anecdotes that you can then when appropriate, not memorize, not like I'm always going to say this, but when appropriate, I can pull from that stockpile and that can really help you. So I think that's a great idea.
Guy Kawasaki:
Okay. What do you tell people about how to appear spontaneous virtually? How does the game change when it's virtual?
Matt Abrahams:
Virtual communication makes it really hard. What I like to do is add interactivity that necessitates spontaneity. When I'm on a Zoom, Team Meet, WebEx, whatever, I might say, "Hey, give me a quick thumbs up if you've ever done this," or, "How many of you have given an introduction to yourself that you felt went really well? Give me that little party horn." So I'm asking people to use the reaction buttons, which I then respond to.
So I say, "Wow, that's everybody." Or, "I'm surprised, I thought there'd be more." So I'm making it interactive, which gets their attention because when you're on these virtual sessions, it is tempting to check your TikTok, your email. So by having them interact and engaging and giving feedback on that interaction, it involves them more. And it clearly demonstrates spontaneity because I didn't know what those responses were going to be.
I'll have people type into the chat, I'll invite other people to take the stage and I'll pin them and they can talk a little bit and then I bring them back. So there are lots of things that you can do to engage people. You have to be more conscious of it and you have to do them more frequently than you might do in person.
So when I teach virtually, every six to eight minutes, I try to do some kind of interactive piece, even if it's simply saying, are there questions or give me a quick thumbs up, simply to keep the attention engaged. Just because there's some research that says every eight to ten minutes you need to shift things up. I like to do a little more frequently than that just to keep people focused.
Guy Kawasaki:
Okay. That's another thing I'm going to rip off from you. I never even thought of that. I never asked for interaction in a Zoom speech. Okay, that's another thing. All right. Next topic. Man, I feel like I have my speech coaching psychiatrist helping me right now.
Matt Abrahams:
I feel more comfortable and confident being a speech coach than a psychiatrist, but happy to.
Guy Kawasaki:
Well there's a fine line between those two things, man.
Matt Abrahams:
That's probably true. That's true. That's true.
Guy Kawasaki:
All right, so now how do you feel about profanity?
Matt Abrahams:
Hella good. So let me share a couple of thoughts about profanity, and you and I have both worked with people in common who swear a lot. In fact, there's this one executive how the way I knew I was really getting through is the more F-bombs he would drop in our interactions. So let me share a couple of things about profanity.
One, there is research around anxiety management that says swearing actually helps you feel more confident. And it has to do with the neurochemicals that we release when we swear. When we cuss, it actually releases a cascade of neurochemicals that blunt cortisol and cortisol is the big pusher of the anxiety symptoms that we feel. I'm not saying you should go out on stage and cuss and curse, but maybe before you go out on stage it can help you feel less nervous.
Cursing can serve to add in the actual speaking, emphasis, but it can also be very off-putting. You have to read the room and you have to know what's appropriate. And certainly it's not binary. There are some swear words that are probably more appropriate.
I say crap all the time and hell all the time, but I might not drop an F-bomb, right? It really depends. It's your personality and it depends what's appropriate. You want it to add emphasis. You don't want it to take people out of the conversations because they're so shocked or surprised by it.
Guy Kawasaki:
I once had this conversation with Gary Vaynerchuk and I said, "Gary, if I were you, I would stop dropping the F-bomb so often." And he gave this whole explanation of our authenticity and being himself and all that. And at the end I said to Gary, "Gary, you have kids and ten years from now they're going to watch videos of you. You want them to see you doing that?" And I think I made them pause for a second there, but we'll see.
I'll tell you a funny story. So the first person to drop the F-bomb in my podcast was of all people, Margaret Atwood. So I often tell this story because that is such a shocker to people. And I'm very cognizant I don't want to come off as a profane person. And I think that profanity often shows that this person is not that smart.
They cannot think of any other way to do something than to swear. So I don't want to look stupid, not on purpose anyway. So I often say, "Listen, Margaret Atwood was the first person to drop an F-bomb on my podcast and I'll tell you the whole story if you are willing to tolerate me saying the F-bomb twice." And then the audience always says, "Yeah, okay, go for it." And then I tell them the story and it works very well.
Matt Abrahams:
You're asking permission and you're preparing them for it, which is different than just dropping it right away. I like that. And I would agree, I equate swearing while in speaking to using a laser pointer when referring to a slide. It is the easy way to highlight something. I think, as you well know, that you can design a slide with a lot of subtle things that can highlight what you want without using the laser pointer.
I think in your communication, you can highlight and accomplish what you want without using swearing. That's not to say that occasionally it doesn't make sense for authenticity or in the moment, but it's a blunt instrument and I think we can do the same thing in a more subtle artful way if we choose.
Guy Kawasaki:
Okay, so now God, you are just a fountain of wisdom. So I never use a laser pointer, and after that conversation I never will because you essentially said if you need a laser pointer, something's wrong with your presentation. I love that.
Matt Abrahams:
There are not words that describe how much I hate and disdain laser pointers. No one uses them. Well, and you're using it because you didn't design the slide right? Or structure your content right. I do not like laser pointers. I think there are far better ways to highlight what you're trying to do, and I encourage people to do that. If I got anybody listening to this to stop using a laser pointer, I feel very good about my success today.
Guy Kawasaki:
Maybe somebody at Logitech is listening, they'll take the laser pointer out of the Logitech remote and then we'll solve the problem for the whole industry.
At the second half of your book, you talk about specific situations. And I got to tell you, I love the one about small talk. And if I may paraphrase this, you said when you're having small talk, there's a structure to it which is you address what? So what? And now what? So can you explain that concept because I loved it?
Matt Abrahams:
Thank you. So a lot of people dread small talk. I actually think you and I together, you could help me, we need to rebrand small talk. Good stuff, big things happen in small talk. In fact, if you think about your friends, chances are somebody in your immediate friendship network, you've met through small talk. We do good things in small talk, but we feel really awkward and uncomfortable in those situations. And it's often around, what do I say and how do I say it?
As I mentioned earlier, I'm a big fan of structure and one of my favorite structures is what you mentioned. It's three simple questions. What? So what? And now what? And you can use this in myriad situations. I call it the Swiss Army knife of structures. I can use it giving an update the what is my update, so what is why my update's important, the now what is the contingencies are for moving forward.
I can give you feedback in this format. The what is my feedback, the so what is why my feedback's important, and my now what is I'd like to see differently. I can write in it, I can introduce myself in it, but it works really well for small talk, both as the initiator of small talk and the responder to small talk.
So if I come up to you at a party and I don't know you, I can simply say, "Hey, what brings you here?" That's the what. And then when you respond, I'll say, "Oh, why is that important to you?" That's the so what. And then I can say, "Now what? What are we going to talk about next? Where are we going to go?" So simply asking the three questions, get the conversation going. And the secret of small talk is to get the other person talking. It makes it less awkward.
My mother-in-law had a black belt in small talk. She was amazing. And her secret was three words, tell me more. When somebody would say something, she'd pause and say, "Tell me more." And she'd get the person speaking more. So what, now what, is a way of doing that.
Now when somebody asks you something in small talk, you can answer or respond in what, so what, now what? If you ask me a question, I can answer. That's my what. I can then tell you why I think it's important. And then now what might be a question back to you or connecting it to somebody else or something else that happens. It's a tool that you can use in many circumstances. But for small talk, what, so what, now what, can be how you initiate or how you respond on.
Guy Kawasaki:
That is a brilliant structure. I've never really asked myself if I'm good at small talk, I think I am. But now that I have your structure, I will be better in small talk.
Matt Abrahams:
Start to see people using it and you'll say, I see what they're doing there. So we enjoy small talk and we just have the experience of it. But if we get meta for a moment and look at what they're doing, you'll see that they're typically inviting us to participate. They are continuing the conversation that we initiated. So they're keeping it moving. And that's the key.
Guy Kawasaki:
You also specifically address pitching and you talk about the three components, which is bring up the problem, the solution, and the benefit. And here is something that I question you because I have heard thousands of pitches. In fact, I think that I am deaf because of all the shitty pitches I've listened to. It's a byproduct of being a venture capitalist and a tech executives. But let's not violate HIPAA too much.
So now, you say in your section about pitching that you start by describing the problem. And my experience, Matt, is that people waste way too much time describing the problem and they just go on and on. They want to talk about, okay, so climate change is a problem and blah, blah, blah. And like fifteen minutes later, everybody knows climate change is a problem.
What's the right amount of discussion of the problem? Because I think people do it too much. It makes them into Evan Sully in their 737 in the East River, not Tom Cruise.
Matt Abrahams:
I absolutely see the same thing you do. So problem solution benefit is a very useful structure when you're trying to persuade or influence anybody. And if you think about it, most television advertisements use that structure as well. Here's some challenge, issue or opportunity. Here's how our product or service solves it. And here's the benefit to you.
A couple of things, you're right, you have to figure out how much depth to go into each of the sections, not just the problem section. You need to give people enough to orient them so that they can understand and appreciate the relevance and value of your solution. Sometimes, it's simply through an analogy. So it can be very quick. You can launch out that air aircraft carrier very quickly. Other times it needs to be more detailed.
The mistake many people make, and I think you've been victimized by it many times, is in describing the problem, what people are trying to do is demonstrate their competence in the area. And I think there are many other ways to demonstrate your competence that doesn't come in your description of the problem.
For anybody pitching anything to VCs, if you're an entrepreneur or just to your PTA, if you're a parent, think about what is the least amount of information I need to give to orient people to the problem or opportunity that I am presenting? And start there. Instead of thinking what are all the things I have to say?
Think to yourself what is the least I have to say to orient people? Because otherwise, you're going to get overwhelmed and people are going to get bored. Tell the time, don't build the clock when you're establishing the problem.
Guy Kawasaki:
I just want to make a general comment that you have my book so you know how organized it is and everything starts with a verb and it's very structured and your book is also very structured. I truly appreciate it. I read so many business books and they go on for five, six pages without any headings or subheadings or bullets and it just drives me crazy. And I think your book is just structured so well. I love your structure of your book. I love the tips, I love the try this and these case studies and stuff.
Matt Abrahams:
Thank you. The way to learn communication is to do communication. And that's why in the very end of the book, I have a QR code that takes people to a bunch of videos because again, you can learn a lot by reading something, but when it comes to communication, you have to see it, you have to experience it. And I'm somebody who believes very firmly in structure. So it was important to me to structure it. So when people say, "Matt, how do you know if your book was successful?"
To me, my book will be successful if people are dog earing pages, they're underlining, highlighting, they're going back to it before they have a situation, because that's how you need to prepare for communication. And the best way to help people do that is to have a clear, concise structure so they can get back to it quickly.
Guy Kawasaki:
One last question here, and it's a question that I think many people don't know how to do and it is how to apologize. Give us the Matt Abrahams analysis of what makes a remarkable apology.
Matt Abrahams:
Yeah. First, I don't think we have to strive for being remarkable, but I know we do in your approach to things, but that puts a lot of pressure on people. And so, I think we just have to start from a place of saying, I made a mistake. There's a faux pas. There's something that needs to be addressed and adjusted.
And we start by simply acknowledging what it is that we've done. And we have to be very clear. What many people do when they apologize is they apologize for how we've made someone feel. We say, "I'm sorry you feel bad." That's not an apology. That's not for the behavior that you did.
So the first thing we have to do is we have to acknowledge what it is that we did. So the first step is acknowledgement, being very clear. So it might be something like, "I'm sorry that I spoke when you were speaking, I stepped in and spoke and cut you off." So that's the acknowledgement of the offending behavior.
The second thing we have to do is we have to appreciate how that behavior might've impacted the person. I understand that might've made you feel like I didn't value your thoughts, and that puts you in a bad light with the rest of us around it, we acknowledge and then we appreciate. And then the most important part is to make an amend to say what you're going to do differently.
In this case, I might say, the next time we're in a meeting together, I will make sure to speak last and to paraphrase what I have heard others say before I share my contribution, it's AAA. I like structures, I like acronyms to help people remember. AAA, just like roadside service helps you when you're in a bad situation, you acknowledge, you appreciate, and then you make amends. So if you invoke AAA, you can be in a much better position for helping you to get through an apology.
Guy Kawasaki:
I have to say that I don't know anybody who uses acronyms as well as you do, man, you are Mr. Acronym. Oh my God, there are more acronyms in your book I love your acronyms.
Matt Abrahams:
But I do take time to define them because too many acronyms can be overwhelming. But I do try to define it because I want people to be able to easily access the information.
Guy Kawasaki:
And I have found that ChatGPT is actually quite helpful for something like that.
Matt Abrahams:
Yeah. That's great. So I'm going to rip that off from you because I have never used ChatGPT to help me and I can see how that would be really helpful.
Guy Kawasaki:
Oh yeah, absolutely. When I was structuring my book is growth, grit, and grace. I love tricolons and I love alliteration. So I had growth and grit and then I asked ChatGPT, I need another thing. That's one syllable starts with GR and it came up with grace.
Matt Abrahams:
That's awesome.
Guy Kawasaki:
And then I thought, but grace is more about athleticism and really the word I want is graciousness took my artistic license and now grace is the same thing as gracious in my mind.
Matt Abrahams:
Absolutely. No, I like it. I'm a big fan of alliteration and rhyme. And when I talk about listening in my book, I borrowed from a colleague of mine, pace, space, grace as well. So yes, things that are memorable are really important. When you're in the moment, that's what can help you.
Guy Kawasaki:
As I reach the end of my life, I may have to write a book that has growth, grit, and grave, because that's another GR alliteration
Matt Abrahams:
That'll be on the tombstone.
Guy Kawasaki:
All right, growth, grit, and grave. Yes.
Matt Abrahams:
Yes, with an arrow pointing down, right?
Guy Kawasaki:
I'm finally centered.
Matt Abrahams:
Yes, exactly. Exactly. Well positioned.
Guy Kawasaki:
I hope you learned how to communicate remarkably from Matt Abrahams. Communicating one to one or one to few is a key skill if you want to make a difference and be remarkable. Yes, I know all about making pitches and making keynote speeches, but I'm telling you the real rubber meets the road when you're in a small group or one-on-one.
I'm Guy Kawasaki. This is Remarkable People. And if you see me speak and there's Q&A, let me know if I'm doing it better than I used to before.
And now let me thank the Remarkable People team, because we are all aligned behind you trying to help you make a difference and change the world and be remarkable. So we have Madisun Nuismer, who's the producer and the co-author of Think Remarkable, Tessa Nuismer, our researcher, Luis Magaña, Fallon Yates and Alexis Nishimura. We are the Remarkable People team, and we got your back. We are going to help you make a difference and be remarkable.
Until next time, mahalo and aloha.