Julia Cameron: Living the Artist’s Way

Guy Kawasaki:
I'm Guy Kawasaki, and this is Remarkable People. Happy 2024. We're on a mission to make you remarkable this year. Today's episode sets a record for us. We are welcoming Julia Cameron for the fourth time on our podcast. She is the first person to four-peat.
Julia is known as the godmother of creativity and the bestselling author of over forty works, including of course, The Artist's Way. Julia will discuss her latest gem, Living the Artist's Way: An Intuitive Path to Greater Creativity. Until this book, Julia's three tools were morning pages, artist dates, and solo no-device, no-dog walks. In this book she unveils the long awaited fourth tool, a vital addition to The Artist's Way trilogy. It's called writing for guidance.
Over six weeks, Julia teaches you how to connect with your intuitive power. Be prepared, by the way, to be knocked over by a feather when Julia answers my question, "Why did it take thirty years to write this book?" Her answer is guaranteed to make you smile. I'm Guy Kawasaki, this is Remarkable People. And now here is the remarkable Julia Cameron, direct from her home without air conditioning yet.
First question, how is the air conditioning? Did you get the air conditioning fixed up?
Julia Cameron:
They still haven't fixed it.
Guy Kawasaki:
Oh my. You're kidding?
Julia Cameron:
No, they have found it difficult to fix. So they are up on the roof tromping around, and they are trying to do their best to have it ready so that when it gets hot again, I'll have air conditioning.
Guy Kawasaki:
No, I'm glad to learn that I'm not alone in having all these aggravating things to do at my house. I'm very familiar with your work and this is the fourth time you've been on, but there may be people who are listening who don't know some of the nuances of your first three tools. So can you just briefly explain morning pages, artist dates, and walking?
Julia Cameron:
These are the basic tools of a creative recovery. And morning pages are three pages of longhand morning writing about absolutely anything, anything that crosses your mind. And they are like poking a little teeny whisk broom into the corners of your consciousness and sweeping the debris into the center of the room where you can deal with it.
So they are the place where you say, "This is what I like, this is what I don't like, this is what I want more of, this is what I want less of." And you are sending a sort of telegram to the universe and the universe responds. That's morning pages.
The second tool is something called an artist date, which if morning pages are done daily, morning pages are non-negotiable. But once a week you take an artist date, which is a solo expedition to do something that enchants or interests you, and it should be something that your inner eight-year-old would find delightful. An artist date has two parts to it, artist and date, and you're out to woo your inner consciousness. And it's an interesting fact that when I assign morning pages, people go straight to work. They go, "Work, I get it. I'm going to work on my creativity." But when I assign an artist date and I say, "Now I want you to go out once a week and play," they become very apprehensive and skeptical and fold their arms across their chest and they say, "What does play have to do with creativity?" And I say, "Well, it has everything to do with creativity." We have an expression, the play of ideas. And that's what you're doing, you're playing so that you will have ideas.
The third tool is very simple, it's put on some shoes and go for a twenty-minute walk, and don't take your dog and don't take your radio and don't take your telephone, and just take your consciousness out and take it for a stroll. So the three tools are morning pages, artist dates, and walks. And then there is a fourth tool, which I have not been faithful about explaining.
It was a tool that I first mentioned in The Artist's Way in 1992, which is that I ask you to ask for guidance. And then I went for thirty years without mentioning it again, even though I was using it all the time. Morning pages, artist dates, walks, and then the fourth tool is I want you to ask for guidance. And the new book, Living the Artist's Way, is a book which is a deep dive into the fourth tool.
Guy Kawasaki:
When you say asking for guidance, is it like you're having a conversation with your consciousness or the universe or God and then you write down what you hear?
Julia Cameron:
You're asking for guidance on something which baffles you. So you write down, what about “X”? And then you listen. And when you listen, you will hear a response, and that response is guidance and it's often clear and direct and precise and welcome.
Guy Kawasaki:
So it's not necessarily appearing to you via writing, you can just, quote, unquote, "Learn this" or "hear this"?
Julia Cameron:
I think it's important that you do it in writing because when you write down your response, you have a record of the guidance that you received. And it's important that you have a sense of the accuracy of the guidance. And so when you write it down, you are putting it on the page and you are saying, "This is what I heard."
Guy Kawasaki:
And why, Julia, did it take thirty years for you to write about this?
Julia Cameron:
I think it's because I was afraid of sounding too woo-woo.
Guy Kawasaki:
Come on, seriously?
Julia Cameron:
Seriously, yes. I was afraid of sounding too woo-woo because when you write for guidance, you are stepping beyond the rational into a world which is intuitive. And I think that I was scared that if I wrote about guidance, people would think, "Oh, she's just a little bit crackers."
Guy Kawasaki:
I don't think you need to worry about that, nobody's going to think that. And you know what? Tough shit if they do. Now, where does listening and praying fit into all of this?
Julia Cameron:
Well, what I found worked best for me was to write three pages of guided writing, morning writing. And that is in essence a prayer because you're saying, "Here's what I want, here's what I hope, here's what I dream, here's what I dare." And when you write out your guidance like that, you find yourself feeling a sense of safety.
Guy Kawasaki:
I understand listening to this force, but when you're praying, are you praying to what people consider a traditional God? Are you praying to the universe? Who are you praying to?
Julia Cameron:
I feel like I'm praying to a line from Dylan Thomas, the poet. "The force that through the green fuse drives the flower." So I feel like I'm praying to a universal energy, a force that opens up to us when we ask it to.
Guy Kawasaki:
Okay. So let me ask you kind of a flip side question, which is, are there any people who are so evil or so whatever, that this writing down and the guidance that they hear is just plain wrong? If Donald Trump did this, what would happen?
Julia Cameron:
If Donald Trump did this we might get a better world, but I think there's no such thing as a person who is too, quote “evil” to write for guidance. And I think that writing for guidance is asking the universe to give us a sense of benevolence.
Guy Kawasaki:
Why do you ascribe so much power to the act of writing? What makes that beyond just thinking or cogitating or whatever? What does the act of putting it on paper do?
Julia Cameron:
The act of putting it on paper is an action of power. We write and when we write, we find ourselves led. And this leading gives us a sense of direction. And my own experience with writing is that it's incredibly powerful and it gives us a sense of right action. And I think that when we don't write, we risk not remembering what our guidance was. And so when we write, we're putting it on the page and we're committing it to memory.
Guy Kawasaki:
I think a lot of scientific evidence supports that with note-taking in schools and stuff. Same thing, right?
Julia Cameron:
Yes, I think so.
Guy Kawasaki:
Now, what if somebody says, "Can I type it? Can I put it in a word processor or a digital journal?" Is it the act of writing is not the same as the act of typing?
Julia Cameron:
It's not the same. When we write, we are connected from our heart to our hand. And when we type, we can go quickly past important points. And I sometimes have people say, "Oh, Julia, I'm so much faster when I type." And I say, "Fast is not what we're after, we're after depth and authenticity."
Guy Kawasaki:
Really tactical question. Do you have a favorite pen?
Julia Cameron:
Oh, I do.
Guy Kawasaki:
What is it?
Julia Cameron:
It's a Uni-Ball 207. It's a fast writing pen.
Guy Kawasaki:
Uni-Ball 207?
Julia Cameron:
Yes.
Guy Kawasaki:
Okay. This episode is going to come out and Amazon is going to be sold out. We should get you an affiliate fee for that. Well, any special color?
Julia Cameron:
I like black.
Guy Kawasaki:
Okay. Okay. I have another bizarre question. I read that you conduct Zoom classes for morning pages. My head exploded. You're the last person in the world I would think is using Zoom, and then using Zoom for something so analog as writing morning pages. It's hard to fit those two thoughts into my limited brain. What is the attraction of Zoom for you?
Julia Cameron:
I like Zoom because I feel connected to the people that I'm teaching and I feel like it gives me a sort of radar, and I feel like it gives me a feeling of commitment. So what I teach on Zoom I want to say with more depth.
Guy Kawasaki:
You teach with more depth with Zoom than in person?
Julia Cameron:
I think so.
Guy Kawasaki:
Wow.
Julia Cameron:
I think it's because you feel the purity of intention of the class.
Guy Kawasaki:
Well, can you explain that?
Julia Cameron:
When I teach on Zoom, I start off by saying, "Now I'm going to count to three, and when I get to three, I want all of you to set an intention that we're going to have a wonderful class." And then I count to three and then we set the intention. And now this is going to sound too woo-woo, but I feel I can experience the good wishes of the class.
Guy Kawasaki:
Wow. I would say 99.9 percent of the world thinks that Zoom is dehumanizing, it lacks human emotion and touch, et cetera, et cetera. And the only two people who I have ever interviewed who said the opposite of that is you and Tom Peters of In Search of Excellence. The both of you are in very good company as having different opinions of Zoom.
Julia Cameron:
Well, I just think that Zoom opens our minds.
Guy Kawasaki:
It seems like about one book a year, because my podcast has been going four years and you've been on four times. So when are you going to stop? Do you ever figure out, okay, I'm done with writing?
Julia Cameron:
I don't figure I'm done with writing, but I do feel like I'm slowing down and putting more thought into the page and putting more intention into the page. And I feel like it's a good thing to be slowing down a little bit.
Guy Kawasaki:
Julia Cameron's idea of slowing down is writing only one book a year. Let's just say that that is a few standard deviations away from most people's idea of slowing down. So Julia, if I were to come to your house, would I see stacks and stacks of morning pages, just a whole library of your morning pages from day one?
Julia Cameron:
You would see a big tall bookcase with morning pages filed throughout.
Guy Kawasaki:
Wow.
Julia Cameron:
And I also feel, like morning pages, journals are a wonderful tool and they are concise.
Guy Kawasaki:
I know morning pages are a private thing, but that would be amazing to look through. That's looking through, I don't know, Leonardo da Vinci's notes or something. That would be an amazing experience, but I digress. Anyway, two final questions. Okay. One question is, and I've done this with several guests who have these important people in their lives, and you just get another sort of perspective on a person. You think that Joel Fotinos would agree to talk to me about what it's like to edit Julia Cameron?
Julia Cameron:
Yes, I think he would talk to you about it. He's been my mentor and my muse for twenty-seven years.
Guy Kawasaki:
So could you help me make that work? Because I think that would be so fascinating, and I bet nobody has ever done that. And my last comment to you. So listen, I've written sixteen books now and I use these quotes, I put a quote in at the start of every chapter and sometimes in the body.
But I have to say that the quotes that you select and where you put them and how you use them is absolutely remarkable. I just love how you find those quotes and use them in your book. I want to know, how do you find those quotes?
Julia Cameron:
I find them through Google.
Guy Kawasaki:
And what search term do you use to find a quote by?
Julia Cameron:
I go by topic, not by person.
Guy Kawasaki:
And so your Google search is find me topics about, I don't know, prayer?
Julia Cameron:
Sure.
Guy Kawasaki:
I'll tell you, my favorite quote in your book is this one, and we'll end with this. I had to write it down, I loved it so much. It's the quote that is, "What's a sundial in the shade?" Oh my God, I just love that quote. So I thank you for bringing that quote into my life.
Julia Cameron:
You're very welcome.
Guy Kawasaki:
That's all I got for you, Julia. I just love interviewing you. I look forward to number five, whenever that happens. And I hope the air conditioning is fixed before it gets hot again.
Julia Cameron:
That would be a wonderful thing, wouldn't it be?
Guy Kawasaki:
Yeah. How could we help along that?
Julia Cameron:
We can set an intention.
Guy Kawasaki:
I will be writing for guidance about how Julia can finally get her air conditioning. How's that?
Julia Cameron:
That sounds good.
Guy Kawasaki:
So there you have it. Julia Cameron, four-peating on the Remarkable People podcast. It’s kind of poetic. She’s been on four times and now she has four tools. So remember morning pages, artist dates, walks, and now writing for guidance. Don't forget the name of her latest book is Living the Artist's Way: An Intuitive Path to Greater Creativity.
Speaking of, Madisun and I recently completed a new book, it's called Think Remarkable. Julia even gave us a great blurb for it. It's coming out in the first week of March, but you can order it now. It will help you make a difference and be remarkable.
I'm Guy Kawasaki, this is Remarkable People.
First, my thanks to Julia's team. That would be Emma Lively, John Karle from St. Martin's, and Nick Kapustinsky. Next, my thanks to the Remarkable People team. That is Jeff Sieh, Shannon Hernandez, the sound design team. The Nuismer sisters, Madisun, Drop-in Queen and producer of the podcast, Tessa Nuismer, who prepares me for every interview and double checks all our transcripts.
We've put a lot of effort into our transcripts. It's because I'm basically deaf. And so I appreciate the ability to read interviews.
And then there's also Alexis Nishimura, Luis Magaña, and Fallon Yates. We are the Remarkable People team, and we are on a mission to make you remarkable in 2024.
Now you have a week to go preorder, Think Remarkable by Guy Kawasaki and Madisun Nuismer.
Until next time, mahalo and aloha.