Dan Lyons: How to Improve Your Life By Shutting Up

Guy Kawasaki:
I'm Guy Kawasaki, and this is Remarkable People. We're on a mission to make you remarkable. Helping me in this episode is my friend, Dan Lyons.
He is going to tell us how to talk less and accomplish more. One might think that Dan has pretty much done it all.
He was a technology editor at Newsweek, a staff writer at Forbes, columnist for Fortune, while also contributing op-ed columns to the New York Times. In addition, he was a writer for HBO's Silicon Valley series.
If you haven't watched it, put that on your to-do list. It perfectly, although maybe a little over the top, captures Silicon Valley. You should know that during Dan's time working at Forbes, he had a blog which I just loved. It was called The Secret Diary of Fake Steve Jobs. It drew an audience of more than a million monthly readers.
Dan received a BA in Liberal Arts from Bradford College and obtained a Master of Fine Arts in Creative Writing at the University of Michigan.
He is a great writer, so it's only natural he has written books. He's the author of Disrupted, Lab Rats, and his latest book, STFU: the Power of Keeping Your Mouth Shut in an Endlessly Noisy World.
His new book reminds us to talk less, listen more, and speak with intention. I'm Guy Kawasaki. This is Remarkable People. And now here is the remarkable and hysterical Dan Lyons.
And we have a special guest too.
We've had interactions over the years and never once did I think, "Oh, my God, that guy talks too much." And then I read your book and I learned that maybe when you don't think somebody who talks too much, talks too much, it's because maybe you talk too much too, so I was really worried there for a while.
Dan Lyons:
You're a great talker, Guy, and you've done so much public speaking. You're out in the public so much and promoting books that it's very natural for you, and you're good at it because you've done so much of it. And then your personality is you're an outgoing, friendly person.
You like to meet people. So yeah, you might talk more than some shy people, but that's different than having a problem. If I can get up and give a talk, but I also have a problem.
Guy Kawasaki:
I have to say, Dan, I am just amazed at the amount of self-deprecating humor and honesty in the book, especially about your marriage. So my second question is, did your wife read the manuscript and tell you to shut the fuck up and keep her out of the book?
Dan Lyons:
Oh, duh. Oh, my God. You just seized on it. No, she was okay. I wouldn't write anything and publish anything without checking with her. And then with my daughter, because she's in it a little bit, and I even said to her just like last week, we just got, this is the finished hard cover of the book and oh, and there was that article in Time which people we know read.
One of her friends sent actually a nice comment, but I said, my wife's name is Sasha, I was like, "Are you okay with this? People are going to read this." And she said, "Yeah, I'm actually fine." All of our friends know that we broke up and we got back together. There's no news there. And I wouldn't anyway go and tell rehashing all the things that went wrong. But anyway, she was amazingly okay with it.
Guy Kawasaki:
Okay. Third question. So I don't know if you noticed, but on some of your LinkedIn posts, I commented. And one of the comments I made was that I thought that the title of your book on the cover is way too small.
And as I was making that comment, I thought, "Guy, you should shut the fuck up because that cover is already locked and loaded. What do you intend to accomplish by telling Dan his cover title is too small." So do you think maybe I should have shut the up about that and not said anything?
Dan Lyons:
Do you mean the element of the STFU element in the cover?
Guy Kawasaki:
Yeah.
Dan Lyons:
I'll tell you, I know exactly why they did that because some people are not as comfortable with that. It's not profane in that form, but the implied profanity. And in fact, at one point, long before it was done, I said, "Let me think about changing the title.
I feel like 'STFU' is a little rude and we could say something like 'Zip It', which is what Time magazine ended up doing." But I think it was downplayed because of that risqué element.
So for example, I got hired to give a talk, and it's actually not about this book, it's about my last book because it's an old gig that was pre-COVID and leftover.
But the agent said, "Hey, could you give out books? You want to buy a bunch of books like they do?" And they said, "No. No, kid's going to be there, but it's a family event and we think that language is... Oh, I don't know." Anyway, that's why it was.
The other comment you put on LinkedIn that I liked better was that some of my hearing is diminished, but I got to tell you, it's a blessing sometimes. And I think so too. I think you just, "Dan, don't have to hear that." That's a lot of what I've done is tune out, like social media. I just tune out.
Guy Kawasaki:
How do you explain the success of Elon Musk, given that he's the person who most personifies the need to STFU?
Dan Lyons:
Yeah, I've thought he and Trump are the two exceptions to the rule because my thesis is more or less that powerful, important, successful people generally talk less than other people, which is for the most part, true. And I have wrestled with the Musk thing, and I think that it's akin to the Trump phenomenon, that he definitely has a problem with narcissism.
He's a charismatic narcissist. And there are some people who respond very positively to people like Elon or to Trump. I think they actually polarize. Some people are really put off, I'm one of those, and then there are people for whom that works. And I think in some ways Elon has succeeded in spite of his overtalking. So he blurted out the thing about, "We're going to take the company private at $420." And trouble over that. He always survives the trouble, well, oh, the better one, "I'm going to go buy Twitter."
"I'm not going to do any due diligence. I'm just going to buy Twitter." He blurts it out and when he makes an offer, he makes a very impulsive offer. Okay, boom, done. And then tries to get out of it, and they held him to it.
Maybe he likes running Twitter, but I think he has landed himself in trouble sometimes. And I also do think, for example, to compare him to someone else. And I'm going to write this article, someone you know very well. Steve Jobs apparently behind the scenes, and you tell me if this is true, behind the scenes he was a shouter and a screamer, and he'd smashed things.
He's really an emotional guy. But in public, he had this ability to hold back, to be very quiet and not to say anything. Their whole culture was very secretive. And I felt like that gave him power because you always wanted to know what's he doing.
You knew he was fascinating if you could just talk to him, but he wouldn't. And even when he gave an interview, he was very careful, very scripted. I feel like if Elon decided suddenly to be completely like that, he would actually be more powerful.
He would be the guy that you don't know what he's doing. He's this mysterious, powerful figure. Bezos, for example, doesn't say much in public because I actually think giving it all away like that squanders power. So Elon in the sense is squandering his power by talking so much, but filling the hole inside himself that needs and craves adulation.
There is no amount of attention that can satisfy him. And so he has to keep getting that fix. He has to keep trolling and getting people stirred up because somehow that gives him a good feeling. But I think in some ways it's a mistake, but he can't help himself.
Guy Kawasaki:
I think the important thing for listeners is to not look at Elon Musk and say, "Okay, so he's just all over the map spraying and praying. That's what makes him great. So I'll go do that and I'll be the next Elon Musk." Most likely you'll just be an asshole.
Dan Lyons:
Right. Yeah. You can't pull it off. And that's a thing. There's some X factor that he has that enables him to get away with that. You and I would just be, yeah, assholes.
But imagine if Steve Jobs had been out on Twitter just gabbing away and throwing shit and insulting people.
You would start to think he's a nut. Or Tim Cook, imagine Tim Cook getting in a petty poo, fighting little squabbles with people and throwing at each other. You wouldn't respect Tim Cook.
So yeah, it doesn't work for everyone. But I'd be interested to know, what do you think if, are we talking about Steve or anybody else, what do you think?
Guy Kawasaki:
Now. With the caveat that I'm going to be accused of hypocrisy here because I sometimes do get into it on social media, but...
Dan Lyons:
Oh, you do? Yeah?
Guy Kawasaki:
Yeah. Sometimes when I'm attacked, I just cannot resist. But anyway, I would generally say that less is more. To take an extreme example, you don't see Jane Goodall arguing with people who are eating meat, right? It's beneath her.
Dan Lyons:
Yeah. You do see Greta Thunberg occasionally, but she's savage. She gets it in one line. She's surgical. But say, here's the balance. You're a person who very much lives in the public light, and you have for a long time because you're a public figure.
You're out there both on social and on email and a newsletter and in public view for a long time been out there, but you managed to work that balance of, "I'm out here, but I'm not oversharing." And I think the content, it matters what you're saying.
What you're saying is your message is always very positive. Here's how you can do this. Here's how you can do that. You're not a negative person.
And I think that goes a long way. You can live in the public sphere if you do it in the right way. And I think when you are talking, you personally, you're intentional. So the things I've come up with is talk less, listen more, but speak with intention, so you know why you're talking.
When you say something, you're not just out randomly rebounding off stuff why you're saying things, which is why your message works. So you're an effective communicator because when you speak, you know what you're saying. I think that's a big difference.
Guy Kawasaki:
I think you're giving me too much credit.
Dan Lyons:
I've been a fan for a long time and, yes, a fan of your work, but I've got to know you over the years a little bit and I've always enjoyed meeting you. You're one of those people that... I remember the first time being a little intimidated.
This guy's this famous guy and I've read his books. And then when you meet, you're like the nicest guy, you're, "Hey, what can I do to help you?" You've inspired me to be like that with other people to say, "If I can do something good for you, let me try to do that."
But I've been a big fan for a long time and not just a fan the way you'd be a fan of some person. I admire you like I'm inspired by you.
Guy Kawasaki:
Oh, my God. Stop talking, Dan. You're embarrassing me.
Dan Lyons:
But now I should shut the fuck up, but it's true. And in fact, if I could communicate the way you do, I'd be better off. But I tend to go either way down here and not say anything or way up here and go "blah, blah, blah" crazy. I don't know.
Guy Kawasaki:
This interview is all over the map.
Dan Lyons:
Yeah, I know. See? This is the problem with me. And I'm dreading any kind of interviews I'll have to do about the book. Like, how will I keep it together?
Guy Kawasaki:
No. Pretend you're talking to Terry Gross, okay? So I'm going to ask you NPR kind of questions right now that'll help you stay on track, okay?
Dan Lyons:
Okay. Yes.
Guy Kawasaki:
How does one know if you are in fact talking too much? What are the signs?
Dan Lyons:
I'm going to answer with my NPR voice…
Guy Kawasaki:
We got to send you a Neumann mic.
Dan Lyons:
Well, the one thing, you start to see people want to get away physically, or there are verbal cues where they've had enough and you still keep talking. Or after a conversation, you look back and realize, "I didn't hear anything about... What's up with them?"
I just talked and talked. I think it begins with just examining the way you communicate, which we don't usually do. Another way would be if you find that you annoy people. After a conversation, you've said things you wish you didn't, and that person is hurt or angry or annoyed, and you've talked your way into trouble. Those would be three ways to know that you talk too much.
Guy Kawasaki:
Continuing with our NPR theme. And, Dan, how do you stop yourself?
Dan Lyons:
For me, it begins with before a conversation, sitting down and thinking about what the point of the conversation is and what do I hope to accomplish and what do I hope to learn, and remind myself that I hope to learn more than I say.
And I actually put stickers up on the wall above my desk, little yellow notes that say things like, "Quiet," "Listen," "Wrap it up," as a reminder. I also try to work on anxiety because I think a lot of over talking for me, and for a lot of people, is caused by anxiety.
And one person I went to during the course of writing the book taught me this idea of self-soothing before a conversation, before walking into a restaurant. Taking a minute to just calm down, bring yourself down. Those are some things that I write about in the book. A lot of the book is very prescriptive in that way.
Guy Kawasaki:
It's so tactical, it's ridiculous.
Okay, next NPR question. So, Dan, how do you stop being interrupted if you are the speaker and you have the floor?
Dan Lyons:
Yeah, that's a great question. And again, I have most of a chapter about interrupting, and then part of it is, yeah, how do you fend off an interrupter with different strategies.
I think my favorite one comes from a professor at, is it William and Mary, who has something she calls "positive future focus", which means don't get angry at the interrupter or ratchet up the heat, but present to that person the idea that we will both get more out of this conversation if we both allow each other to speak and finish what we want to say.
So it's a polite way of saying to someone, "Hey, shut the fuck up. Now, I was talking." There are those ways, Kamala Harris, you remember famously in a debate with Mike Pence said, "Mr. Vice President, Mr. Vice President, I'm speaking." And that can work.
Another strategy is you just keep talking, which is a great strategy is before the meeting, whoever's running the meeting sets it out as a ground rule, "Hey everybody, we're going to have a conversation and we're going to let everybody finish what they want to say, okay?” And we get buy-in from the group.
And then if someone does interrupt, "Oh, wait, we've all agreed to do it this way." And finally you talk to the person in private and say, this is a repeat offender, "You have a tendency to interrupt a lot in meetings." And sometimes people will be defensive, but sometimes people are unaware of this.
And just by saying, "Pay attention." And to be honest, it's usually a man and it's most often a woman being interrupted. So it's a conversation where a woman who's being interrupted goes to that person later. Or you can become an advocate.
So someone else in the meeting pulls that guy aside and says, "Hey, I don't know if you know that do you do this, or you do and this isn't helping you." So I think, again, framing it in a positive way that, "Let's help you do better in meetings."
Guy Kawasaki:
In your book. I think you had a great tip along these lines. I don't know if you mentioned it as a tip or you just mentioned it as a factual finding, but you said that you looked at transcripts of some of your conversations and there's like whole blocks where it's you and then the other person can't get a word in sideways, right?
Dan Lyons:
Exactly. That's a great way to train yourself to balance your conversation with someone else. On Zoom, is it very easy to record a Zoom call and then I think Zoom will even transcribe, but I usually send it out to Rev.com because they give you a really nice transcription. And then, yeah, you have a visual. You see it on the page visually.
And for me, that was really compelling, a real wake up call. And can I tell you that full anecdote that you're referring to? We want to keep these answers tight, but I found a woman who teaches listening at a university, one of the very few people in the world who teaches a whole class.
And wrote to her, wrote back, and it turns out we have a mutual friend, so that always breaks the ice. And I interviewed her. And then I printed it out and I looked and I had done at least 80 percent of the talking. Visually I could see it. And I realized I have almost nothing from her. And the idea was to ask her, "How do I listen?" And so I wrote back to her and we had bonded enough.
I was like, "Look, I kind of hate you. You completely did a rope-a-dope on me. You sat back. You listened." And so I said, "We have to redo the interview." And we did it and she was almost helping me through the second one, and I managed to hold back. But yeah, looking at a transcript is a very powerful, powerful tool.
Guy Kawasaki:
You touched on a tool that I used, which is we obviously are recording this podcast. We take the audio after we edit and we send it to Rev, and then Rev sends it back to us, and then Madisun goes through the transcripts and makes it perfect.
It is a source of great pride to me that when we look at those transcripts, it's 90 percent the guest and 10 or 5 percent me. And I think that's the way it should be. You're the guest. I'm trying to get your knowledge out. I'm not trying to spew forth my theories.
Dan Lyons:
Yeah, that's why you're a good interviewer. But Larry King said, "I never learned anything while I was talking." The famous Larry King, the greatest interviewer, writer of his time, one of, always talked about this. Ask a question, listen, and then really listen. listen to what the person says. And then the next question is based on that.
So you're doing well. If you're only 10 percent, I think that's like hall of fame level.
Guy Kawasaki:
It would be interesting to compare my transcript to Joe Rogan's transcript.
Dan Lyons:
I don't really listen to his podcast. I've never listened to a full one. But I'll see sometimes those snippets that get passed around on social and what always amazes me, and usually it's almost always the guest as a guy that I've seen, and they talk over each other constantly.
And once you look for it, how often does Joe Rogan start talking while the other person is still talking? It's a lot and vice versa. So, yeah, in a lot of those sports podcasts, the same thing. It's people talking over each other. And I find that maddening, but maybe people like it.
Guy Kawasaki:
Well, Joe Rogan has more downloads than I do. That's for sure.
Dan Lyons:
Yes. So something's working there. And maybe that's just a style. But if you imagine being in a conversation with someone at a dinner party and it's going like that, I don't think it would be fun. Rogan also is good. He asks good questions, I think. And he has interesting guests, so that probably helps him.
Guy Kawasaki:
I'll give you a little tactical tip that if you turn to podcasting in a big way. So I use a RODECaster Pro mixing board, and not because I have fantasies of being a DJ or anything, but one of the advantages of using this RODECaster Pro mixing board is that after I ask a question, I mute myself on purpose.
And this has the effect of, you don't hear me grunting, burping, sneezing. And it takes a very conscious act, if I want to interrupt you, I have to unmute myself. I can't just spew out this BS.
Dan Lyons:
God, I wish I had interviewed you when I was doing the... because that is so smart. I do that in Zoom calls, especially if it's a group. I'll mute and I try to mostly listen.
But if you do want to talk, yeah, you have to reach over. That's amazing. I think of these as little hacks. That's a little hack. One of yours is in the book. And honestly...
Guy Kawasaki:
I saw that.
Dan Lyons:
Very much has changed my life in that the maximum number of sentences in an email, five sentences. That's Guy Kawasaki's rule. And I thought to myself, "Yeah, how many emails do I write that just go on and on? And who reads them?"
When I get a long email, I don't read it. I just don't. I read a little, but then there's a lot of discipline involved in trying to convey something in that short email. But it also means leaving a lot out. Just saying, "Can we talk?" If there's more than you can say in five sentences, you need to have a conversation. Tell me, how did you come up with five sentences? Why was that the number?
Guy Kawasaki:
It's journalistic training, right? It's what, when, who, why, whatever. That's it. That's all I want to know. I don't want to know your whole freaking family history from the time they came over in the Mayflower.
To me, in an email, the first thing I want to know is what do you want, because everything else doesn't matter if I can't or won't give it to you, so I want that in the first sentence. But I digress.
Dan Lyons:
No, but that's another tip I'm going to use. I work in various ways with different people. And I started working in the last few months with a woman who's been around, been a very high level executive. And her emails are so tight. “Take a look at this. What do you think?”
“Do this. Give a read through that.” And her text messages, we became close enough to text, they're insane. Like, she invited me to a get together and it was, "See you Friday, five o'clock." Just the address, the street address. Just what day, what time.
And I actually told her, "I'm writing this book. And you are like my hero. You're so good at this." Because what does it convey? It conveys like A, I'm busy. B, I know exactly what I want. I'm smart. And I'm just a person who doesn't screw around. She's very direct. And I love working with her.
Guy Kawasaki:
I may have the opposite story for you, which is, I'm like that. So when I get pitched for people to be on this podcast or something, I get one or two pitches a day, Dan, from Joe Blow of Blow Consulting, who wrote the book The Blow Way, self-published by Blow Press, two-page emails saying, "I enjoy your podcast. I believe I should be on it because I've created a seven digit consulting business. And I wrote a book called The Blow Away. Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah."
And I want to tell him in one sentence, "My guess is Jane Goodall. How do you even think you stack up against Jane Goodall and Dan Lyons?"
Well, I hold myself back because I don't want to be rude. And I let Madisun send a really heartfelt, "We really appreciate you contacting us, but we're just inundated with guests. Unfortunately, we can't have all the remarkable people on our podcast because there's only fifty-two episodes."
The amazing thing, Dan, is that everybody responds back by saying, "Oh, you're the only person who even responded. Thank you so much. I realize you're too busy to have me. If there's ever an opening... Thank you very much."
So there is an argument to be made that everybody like you and me needs a Madisun to soften us up sometimes.
Dan Lyons:
Yeah. And I don't have a Madisun, but I try to do that. I think that's karma. That's you putting good karma back into the world. A side issue in a way, but as a reporter, when I would get PR pitches, you get a lot. And I would always try to write back and say, "I'm sorry. Not for me."
It's something and not rude. And I would see other reporters usually go on social and complain, "If you're going to pitch me, at least blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. I'm really busy." And I always thought, "You know what? You don't look good saying that."
And the one we'd get a lot, I was at Newsweek, and you get this usually young PR person because they make them do the cold calling, pick up the phone, "Hi, this is so-and-so from Joe Blow agency. We have a client named blah, blah, blah." And you want to just hang up.
But I would always stop and say, "That's not what I write about. I can't do that. But tell me, who are you? How long have you been at the agency? Who else do you represent?" I try to build a connection with that person because one time out of ten, they would have a pitch that I want.
They would have something. A, it was polite. But B, I also remembered being a young reporter, and you got to call people who don't want to take your calls. It's tough.
Guy Kawasaki:
So Madisun, you heard that, right? That is a really great suggestion. So when you reject Joe Blow or Joe Blow's person, ask about their background and who else they represent because they may have Michelle Obama, or they may have Stacey Abrams, or they may have Adam Kinzinger somebody we want.
So I think we add that paragraph to your nice rejection letter, Madisun, okay?
Dan Lyons:
I think another thing, when pitching, like you say A, B, very tight, right? Five sentence. Keep it tight. What do you want? Okay. So what that guy wants is to get on your podcast and have a lot of people learn about his book. But I think often people pitch that when they should also be pitching, "Hey, guy, here's what in it for you.
Here's what I can do for you." My son, both kids are high school seniors and they just applied to college. And I kept trying to say to them, "You're all thinking, okay, what do I have to say to make them like me and tell them I do this and I do that?"
And I said, "But you also have to say, here's what I can do for you." I'm that kind of kid. I'm going to come there and I'm going to get involved. Like I'm additive. So I think those pitches work better.
Guy Kawasaki:
Or you can just ask Hunter Biden to give you a wreck. But I digress.
Dan Lyons:
Oh, wait a minute. Wasn't that the case where Tucker Carlson asked Hunter Biden to get his kid into a private school? Is that what you're referring to?
Guy Kawasaki:
Yep.
Dan Lyons:
Yeah.
Guy Kawasaki:
That was the wreck on the laptop. But anyway, I'm going to go down a little bit of a rat hole and I'm going to defy the spirit of your book, but I got to tell you the funny thing. So I'm reading your book, and then I come to the paragraph about me and I'm like, "Oh, shit, I'm so flattered.
Dan is mentioning me in his book." But a half an hour before that, I read the paragraph where you said, "Oh, there was this tech evangelist of a software company and he was posting sixty times a day." And I thought, "Shit, Dan is talking about me. He's just not identifying me."
Dan Lyons:
No, that's not you. No. And I purposely didn't say a name because why do that.
Guy Kawasaki:
Now, have you figured out in your mind why it's always men interrupting women? What is wrong with us?
Dan Lyons:
I asked a lot of people that question, and one thing I heard several times was that men are socialized from the time we're little boys to use speech as a way to assert yourself in a pecking order among other little boys. So if you watch a group of boys, or for that matter, a group of grown men, you'll see them all trying to be the alpha and talking is a way of establishing that.
So the point is, men do it to men also. In meetings, they tend to do it with women more. But if you see men together, the alpha is the one like Joe Rogan, interrupting, interrupting, talking over.
So we are socialized that way, is the theory. And women are socialized to try to build consensus, and so they listen and they talk more. And these stereotypes obviously are not universal, but that's one of the theories, that it begins with how we're socialized as kids.
And I think for men, it's so deeply ingrained that we sometimes don't even know we're doing it. And one exercise I think is really cool is, the next time you're in a meeting, hang back, be an observer, especially if you're not the one making the presentation, and watch. Just record how many times does an interruption take place. Just look for it.
And you'll see men interrupting women. And once you see it, you can't unsee it. It's one of the things I write about in the book.
And as a man, it made me think, "Boy, I have to be extra vigilant in conversations with women, both professional and interpersonal." Because I also realized the women in the meeting, or the woman you're talking to, is just waiting for you to interrupt and go, "Ah, there you go, another asshole."
She's expecting it. And when you don't do it, I think it's a sign of respect and it's a sign of saying, "No, I really want to hear what you say." But yeah, I think it's how we're socialized.
Guy Kawasaki:
Can I double down on that and say that not only is it rude to interrupt the woman, probably she is smarter than you and has better things to say than your interruption.
Dan Lyons:
Then you and I have had the same professional experience, that the women we work with are usually really good and really smart. And I totally agree.
Guy Kawasaki:
Nobody ever talks about this aspect of Steve Jobs, but at least my recollection of his direct reports in the Mac division, and this is in the eighties, half or more were women. Steve Jobs was absolutely, in my recollection, gender blind.
He didn't care what gender, religion, race, sex, creed, color, anything. He only cared, are you insanely great or not? That was it. It was very black and white with him. And he provided, I think, a very good role model in the eighties.
Dan Lyons:
Wow, I didn't know that. But the thing of it is, man, woman, whoever you were, you had to be able to get in the ring with him and go toe to toe and defend your ideas. And you had to be strong to survive him. Right?
Guy Kawasaki:
Let me just go on the record and say, he scared the shit out of me. You got the best work out of me. Because all these touchy-feely, kumbaya HR theories about talking and communicating, reaching mutual goals, focusing on positive accomplishments, blah, blah, blah, Steve Jobs need none of that.
He just scared the shit out of me. I didn't want to ever be embarrassed by him. And I'm telling you, contrary to all HR modern theory, that works.
Dan Lyons:
Yeah. I worked recently with a woman, so about our age who had worked in design. She was a designer, had worked at Apple. No, she was there in the era maybe when you were there, but then also in 1996 when Steve came back.
And then for a while she was, it was Chiat Day, the agency that Apple used. And she said the exact same thing, "Boy, if you were going to present something to Steve, you'd go over it and over it. You didn't want to go in there with something not even half-assed. It better be excellent it. And you'd be terrified."
But she said, "It brought out the best in us because it forced us just to go back and be, 'No, no, no, it's got to be better than that.' And then once you had that, you were able to go in and say, 'No, here's why I did this. Here's why I made the decision.'"
Do you know Kim Scott, the Radical Candor author?
Guy Kawasaki:
No, I don't.
Dan Lyons:
Oh, you should. We'll talk after this. She's someone you should have on your podcast. She was an executive coach, all sorts of big people. And she wrote a book called Radical Candor about how to manage people and not doing what you said, blah, blah, blah. Like a way to be direct, but be respectful.
And that's a hard thing to do. I guess Steve would be direct, but not necessarily respectful.
Guy Kawasaki:
Well, I would make the case even when he was disrespectful, he was probably right.
Dan Lyons:
I think Bill Gates was the same way from what I've heard about how he managed at Microsoft. He was very combative. And then that shaped a culture where people would debate very aggressively. Look, Bezos is the same way. People would be in terror of Bezos.
He had this thing called the question mark email. He got an email from someone who complained about something and he'd go, "Okay, who runs this group? Oh, Guy Kawasaki." Forward it to you with a question mark. And it would instill fear in people because you knew.
Guy Kawasaki:
See that? That's not even five sentences.
Dan Lyons:
Yeah, one character. But yeah, I think you're right. You'll hear people say, "God, Amazon was the most difficult job I ever had, but also the best job. It really, really pushed me to do my greatest work."
Guy Kawasaki:
A few years back. I had been out of Apple a long time. And I knew someone who was in a middle management position, but in an area that interacted with Steve a lot because it had to do with conferences and appearances.
And he would tell me stories about how Steve Jobs wanted this special stool made in Switzerland. And the bottled water couldn't be Evian. It had to be the one that the Tibetan monks got from the Himalayas melting and all that.
And I said to him, "Why do you put up with all that bullshit?" And he said to me, "You know why, Guy? Because Steve Jobs enables me to do the best work of my career." I'll never forget that answer.
Dan Lyons:
Yeah. I believe that.
Guy Kawasaki:
Since we're going deep into Steve Jobs. So I absolutely adored the fake Steve Jobs blog that you had. Oh, my God.
That just had me laughing in stitches so many times. So do you have any great stories about when you were fake Steve Jobs? This is a real softball NPR kind of question.
Do you have any good stories about being the fake Steve Jobs, Dan?
Dan Lyons:
Well, God. There was a couple. One is that one time at, I think it used to be called All Things Digital or AllThingsD. The conference where Kara Swisher and Walt Mossberg were the hosts. They had this famous event where they had Steve Jobs and Bill Gates on stage together, which you think, "Man, it really historic moment." And two guys who more or less grew up with each other, had fought.
And I don't even know how they convinced the two to get on stage together, but they did. And it was when nobody knew that I was fake Steve. It was still an anonymous blog. And before they began, right at the start, Bill said to Steve, "I just want to say I'm not fake Steve Jobs. Hahaha."
And everybody laughed. Like, "I'm not the one making fun of you online." And then Walt said to Steve, "Oh, what he's talking about, have you heard of that blog?" And Steve was like, "Yeah, I've heard of that blog." And Walt said, "What do you think about it?"
And he said, "Sometimes it's funny." "And the guy's got a book coming out. Are you going to read the book?" And he said, "Nah, I don't think I'll read." But I thought, wow, Bill Gates and Steve Jobs know about this blog. Wow, that blew my mind. Another time someone at Apple, because there were people at Apple who liked the blog but couldn't ever say that.
But I had a book too, and some of them came, they hid in the back, or they'd reach out on this weird on some email and say, "I'm from Apple. I'm coming to your thing. I want to meet you."
And so I got to know some. And I would never ask them any inside information. I just thought that's a line. Plus I was writing fiction. But they said, "Sometimes you're really close to the truth."
And one of them claimed that at an event they were getting together and there was something on that morning's blog and Steve said, I don't know who that is, but sometimes they really get me. So those were a couple moments when it was fun.
Guy Kawasaki:
Made it all worth it.
Dan Lyons:
Because deep down, I really admired Steve Jobs. And I think to some extent the blog was taking the piss out of him a little bit. But the reason people really responded to it was when the times when fake Steve would say, "What you believe, or probably what real Steve would love to say but can't say in public." And I think people were like, "Yes, Steve Jobs. I admired him."
And I think maybe that came through. I had a dream once because I spent so much time thinking about him every day for, I don't know, a year and a half while I was writing that. All day long, all I do was imagine myself.
I had a dream once that I met him and that we had this amazing conversation and he was such a cool guy and everything, and I never did meet him. At the iPad introduction, I went there as a reporter from Newsweek. And it was known now that I'm fake Steve.
And as it was ending and breaking up, Steve was down by the stage, surrounded by a bunch of people. And this guy, one of the fake Steve fans said to me, "Come on. He's right there. Let's just run down. You stand next to him. Say hi, I'll grab a picture really fast. Let's do it." And I just chickened out. I was afraid.
Guy Kawasaki:
You should have done it. Oh, My God.
Dan Lyons:
I thought, ‘What if he hates me anyway?’ Anyway. I was afraid of him like you were, I guess.
Guy Kawasaki:
Believe me, I was. So then I tell you, you had fake Steve Jobs. You had him wired. And then you go on and you do Silicon Valley, the HBO series. And oh, my God, that was so spot on too.
Dan Lyons:
That was not me. I contributed. But those guys spent so much time doing research, you wouldn't believe it because they're writing just a comedy show. But every year, the whole writing crew would go up to Silicon Valley before the writing season, spend a week talking to people, interviewing Mark Andreessen and running storylines by them.
And we went to Google. Would this ever happen? They would then video in people from Silicon Valley to talk for an hour or two. We just all ask them questions or they'd even fly people in and have them sit in the room with us. One season, we had Dick Costolo from Twitter on staff as a writer for the whole season, and I sat next to him.
So they really did a lot to try to get real stuff. Also, the guy who ran that show is named Alec Berg, and he went to Harvard with Sheryl Sandberg and knew her even in college. He knew her very well. So he could always, I don't know if he called her up, but he was no stranger to the tech industry.
Guy Kawasaki:
I think you should do fake Elon Musk.
Dan Lyons:
Someone said that he's almost a parody of himself already.
Guy Kawasaki:
How hard could that be?
Dan Lyons:
See, the advantage of Steve Jobs was because he didn't say anything, because he was so secretive, he left this vacuum that you could fill.
Guy Kawasaki:
You're right.
Dan Lyons:
It would be like spending hours every day with someone you don't like. If you hang out all day in your head with Steve Jobs, it's like cool. Imagine hanging out trying to be in Elon Musk's mind. I don't think that's a happy place.
Guy Kawasaki:
So how about you size your book? I love this book.
Dan Lyons:
The book is called STFU: The Power of Keeping Your Mouth Shut in an Endlessly Noisy World. And in one sentence the premise is that, if you talk less, listen more, and speak with intention, you can make yourself happier, healthier, more successful, and most important, a better parent and a better partner. That's the book in a nutshell.
Guy Kawasaki:
That's a wrap, baby. That's perfect.
Dan Lyons:
See, occasionally I can do it.
Guy Kawasaki:
I have an idea for you. You can say no, or you can think about it and say yes or no later. But in a few episodes I do the equivalent of a podcasting gray bar. So when I did Sal Khan of Khan Academy, I actually talked to the proverbial niece who was having trouble with algebra, and I called her up.
So my idea for your episode is I call up your wife and I say something like, "All right. Tell me..." So you think about that. I would love to do that. I don't know if you would, and I don't know if she would, but you consider that. Okay?
Dan Lyons:
And what I will ask her, I will tell you, she is incredibly smart. She has a PhD in Russian literature and is a fascinating person, but she's also an extreme introvert, extremely introverted. Even though she's also a history teacher at a private school, so she spends all day up in front of kids. But I will ask her. She might get a kick out of it.
So knock me over with a feather. Dan asked and she agreed. So here's the recording of our phone conversation.
Guy Kawasaki:

Thank you very much for taking this call on a Friday night. I appreciate this very much,

Sasha Lyons:
It’s not like I have anything else to do.
Guy Kawasaki:
I’m even more sorry to hear that.
Obviously, you know that I interviewed Dan about his book and I thought, “Oh, it might be nice to hear the other side of the story from Dan’s wife.” So I guess my question is, what’s it like, or maybe what was it like being married to someone who can’t shut up?

Sasha Lyons:
Well we’re still married. Although we almost weren’t for a while. But I have to tell you, when we first started dating, it was really fun because he’s a very funny person, and especially if you don’t know the stories yet. I would laugh so hard my stomach was hurting and he could just go on and on for hours and then he’d meet my friends and they would say, “Oh my gosh, he should be a standup comedian.”

I mean in all seriousness, I’ve never met anyone that funny. So I think in small doses it. You know, he can really be the life of the party. And I am not funny, and I am not good at talking, which is kind of weird because I’m a teacher, so I talk a lot. But like my students definitely, they’ll tell you I am not funny.

They’re like, “Don’t even try to make jokes.” Whereas Dan can be eating out of his hand. He gave a talk at my old school and they were dying. They loved it. So on that surface level, it’s kind of easy because I can just sort of let him do the talking and be the star and I don’t really have to do anything

The problem is when he would get carried away. Like he starts telling a story and he is kind of oversharing and people are uncomfortable or like they really have to leave. And it’s not that he doesn’t get it because he is actually like very socially aware, but he can’t stop himself. Because it’s all based on anxiety and so it’s kind of like watching a car wreck in slow motion.

Guy Kawasaki:
Is he better now?

Sasha Lyons:
He actually is, he’s really been working on it. He has a meditation practice and he’s put like signs around his desk for when he’s talking on work calls or interviews, the kids will still bust him though at dinner or something when he starts, they call it the dialogues or the data and he’ll just launch into some topic and a lot of times it’s something they’ve heard before.
And so my son will just start to finish be imitating dad and then that just kills him. They can totally call him on it.

But when they were younger, they would just get annoyed and that was another instance where he would see, “I’m really annoying my kid with doing this or keeping this line of conversation going.” And he couldn’t stop himself until the kid would just be screaming and crying and frustrated.

And I would just be like, “Why can’t you just stop?”

But it’s like he can’t stop.

So I don’t relate to that but I’ve seen it happen.

So he really did start to work on it a few years ago and try to change how he interacted but it’s still funny when he kind of falls back into the old habits.

Guy Kawasaki:
And if someone listening to this is married to a Dan kind of person, what’s your advice?

Sasha Lyons:
I think they have to think that it’s a problem and want to do something about it. And it’s not easy. It’s not easy to do something about it. But it’s definitely possible. If you’re married to someone and they’re an over talker, you either think it’s unbearable or you don’t.

Like I said, in some ways, it suited me because I didn’t have to do the talking when we would be socializing. And so I could see that kind of working out for some people. But would say, well read the book, see what you can do and what you can’t do.

You can’t really change who you are. And like he says, there’s no cure for overtalking. It’s just something that you are aware of and you practice changing your habits.
Guy Kawasaki:
You have to admit it's been a hilarious and enlightening conversation with Dan and Sasha Lyons.
We're honored to have both of them on the show and grateful for the wealth of knowledge, experience, and humor they shared. We hope you'll join us again next time for more thought provoking insights from Remarkable People.
Remember, listen more, talk less, and speak with intention. Thanks for tuning in to Remarkable People.
Thanks to the great Remarkable People Team: Peg Fitzpatrick, Jeff Sieh, Shannon Hernandez, Luis Magana, Alexis Nishimura, and DIQ Madisun Nuismer.