Paul Theroux

Guy Kawasaki:
I'm Guy Kawasaki, and this is Remarkable People. This episode's remarkable guest is, Paul Theroux. Whose name I mispronounced throughout the entire interview. He's one of the best-known travel writers in the world. The Great Railway Bazaar, a book about his epic railway trip from the UK to Japan and back, is considered a classic in travel writing. You've probably also heard of The Mosquito Coast. This book won the James Tait Black Memorial Prize in 1981, and it was made into a movie in 1986. In 2015, The Royal Geographical Society awarded him the Royal Medal for, "The encouragement of geographical discovery through travel writing." Other recipients of this medal include Sir. Edmund Hillary, Admiral Richard Byrd, and Dr. Thor Heyerdahl.
In this episode, you'll learn why getting your book banned isn't necessarily a bad thing. How travel teaches you that you're small and the world is big. The power of walking and biking to encourage the writing muse. And how to survive a year of travel along the Mexican-US border.
Paul currently lives in Massachusetts and Hawaii. This interview was conducted while he was on the North Shore of Hawaii, where people may know him more as a paddler and a farmer than a writer. We went a little overboard with our discussion of Hawaii, but Hawaii is a remarkable place. The podcast starts with a discussion of a Hawaiian term, bulai, it's the pidgin word for lying. I think it's a slightly cleaned up version of bullshit.
This episode of Remarkable People is brought to you by reMarkable, the paper tablet company. Yes, you've got that right, Remarkable is sponsored by reMarkable. I have Version 2 in my hot little hands and it's so good. A very impressive upgrade.
Here's how I use it. One, taking notes while I'm interviewing a podcast guest. Two, taking notes while being brief about speaking gigs. Three, drafting the structure of keynote speeches. Four, storing manuals for the gizmos that I buy. Five, roughing out drawings for things like surf boards, surf board sheds, and office layouts. Six, wrapping my head around complex ideas with diagrams and flow charts. This is a remarkably well thought out product. It doesn't try to be all things to all people, but it takes notes better than anything I've used. Check out the recent reviews of the latest version.
I'm Guy Kawasaki, and this is Remarkable People. And now, here's the remarkable Paul Theroux.
I have not read or heard the term bulai for about 40 years. So when I read your book, I just loved it and I'd never seen it spelled out, so I had to look that up. I love that term. Yeah. [crosstalk 00:03:09].
Paul Theroux:
It's hard actually to find a definitive spelling, because sometimes we say, boolier, boolai, bulai. But, yeah. Well, anyway, that's good. So you'll recognize a lot of this particular book that other people won't.
Guy Kawasaki:
Oh, yeah. Yeah. And I do have a question though. Why do you spell how's it, H-O-W'S I-T as opposed to H-O-W-Z-I-T?
Paul Theroux:
I think that was probably the proofreader, corrected it. Yeah.
Guy Kawasaki:
Okay. Because you certainly have pidgin down path in that book.
Paul Theroux:
Well, thanks. I've lived here more than 30 years, and I hear it all the time. Most people I know, speak pidgin. Surfers. I paddle, I have a outrigger canoe. So I go paddling twice a week with guys. They don't know I'm a writer. Once I was paddling and... I'm an old guy in an outrigger, and they said, "Howzit? You want to run with us?" I said, "Okay." So, now we paddle, they speak pidgin all the time. So, I'm always hearing it.
Guy Kawasaki:
I have never completely lost it. And at one point in my life, I decided that people don't try to rid themselves of their British accent or their Southern accent or their... Why should I have to try to lose my pidgin accent? Although, I don't think it makes you necessarily sound too intelligent. But I never completely lost it.
Paul Theroux:
I've had these discussions with these guys, these paddlers. They're Hawaiian, and one of them speaks Hawaiian. And we talk about that a lot, not only pidgin, but Hawaiian. And I said, "If you lose your language, you lose a whole vocabulary of culture, which is essential to who you are." The first thing that colonialists do, is take language away from people. And when the missionaries came to Hawaii, they didn't allow Hawaiians to speak pidgin, but also Hawaiian in the schools.
When you lose your language, you actually lose your culture. If you want to find a way into a culture... I went to Africa, when I was 22 and I was a teacher. I was a [inaudible 00:05:41] teacher in the middle of Africa. The first thing I did was learn the language, it was called Chichewa. So it's spoken in Mozambique, Malawi, bit of Zambia. So when I learned it, I certainly not only had a lot of friends, but I had access to culture. So, you have a greater understanding of Hawaii, even though you haven't lived here, I guess, much in your adult life. That's who you are, and that's your access to the culture. So it's a great thing, I think.
Guy Kawasaki:
When I take my family to Hawaii, and of course our first step is Zippy's. When I drop into pidgin, my family can barely understand what I'm saying. So, it's quite hilarious.
Paul Theroux:
Yeah. Well, there you go.
Guy Kawasaki:
So, you said you have an outrigger. But, are you a surfer? Because your book shows great understanding of surfing and the breaks in Hawaii, and all the good stuff. How did you come to master all of that?
Paul Theroux:
Just by living here, I didn't study it. We lived in Manoa, [Sheila 00:06:53], whom you know, was married before and had a house in Manoa. So, when we first got together, we lived in that house. I really didn't like it. You know Honolulu, Kalihi Valley, for example, houses are very close together there. And what I craved was elbow room. Now, I live here on seven acres, not many people have this amount of elbow room. But when I bought it 22, 23 years ago. No, no, 28 years ago. I bought it in 1992, 28 years ago. So I thought, I've got to get out of listening to other people's radio. You know, you hear the radio next door, or someone saying, "Pass the [inaudible 00:07:44]." And you could smell the teriyaki sauce, the [inaudible 00:07:47].
Just the idea of being in such close proximity to other people. People live very close together in Hawaii, and I needed to get away from it. So, that's the long answer. When I moved out of Honolulu, I moved into a place with its own culture, its own rules, actually. And basically its surfers' paradise. There's a lot of traditional Hawaiian sites here, ceremonial sites and so forth. And I don't know anyone who wrote...
When I'm on the beach, I'm sometimes sitting in a chair, writing. People come up and say, local guys, so they say, "What are you writing? What are you doing?" Because it's such a crazy thing, reading or writing doesn't figure in the lives of people on the North Shore. So, what does, is surfing, and the geography of the North Shore is defined by breaks. It happened at Chuns Reef, [Aulanis 00:08:55], [inaudible 00:08:55], Himalayas, Avalanche, that's how people define where you are. I saw an accident at Chuns [inaudible 00:09:00]. That's just the way life goes on, here. So, it's not hard, if you're reasonably attentive you can kind of figure it out.
Guy Kawasaki:
It's one thing to know where the breaks are and their names. But this book, it goes into the emotions of surfing. How did you get that without being a surfer, is what I'm asking.
Paul Theroux:
I suppose that's part of the imaginative aspect of fiction, which is the kind of ventriloquism of becoming another person or... I mean, I've interrogated people about it, but also I've been a paddler. In the 1980s, mid eighties, I took up paddling, paddling a kayak. It was on the east coast. And I wrote a book about it, called, The Happy Isles of Oceania. Where I paddled on 53 islands in the Pacific, Tonga, Samoa, New Guinea, Australia. I went to Easter Island, Tahiti, the Marquesas, name it. And I was always paddling. Often, unwillingly but of necessity, surfing a kayak. So, I can surf a kayak. I'm not great at it, but I can do it. And when you see people surfing, it's something you need to watch. You can't actually get it out of a book. You get it from other people, and from the experience of it.
So as a paddler, as a resident, I think, probably that accounts for it. But, it does help to have some sense of the water. And here's what I think about Hawaii in general. Hawaii is not inhabited islands, it's not just volcanic islands, it's the surf, it's the water, it's everything around Hawaii. A lot of people come here and they think, especially I suppose tourists, but other people too, they think you're on land. You're not on land. It's like being on a boat, and the water matters to you, and the farther you go out in the water, you realize there's a whole life in the water. Fishermen, swimmers, surfers, and you get out and you actually... The best view of Hawaii is from the water when you're off shore, then you see it.
So the water is also part of the Hawaiian experience. I always felt that to be the case, but also I conscientiously studied it, to try to understand the relationship between the water and the land. And, that's the defining aspect, I suppose, of the book. Although the book is really about a guy who has a problem. I mean, he hits a guy on a bike and doesn't know who it is, and the guy has to kind of figure it out. So, it's not about surfing, but I would say it's also about aging. It's about getting old and-
Guy Kawasaki:
Is [Sharky 00:12:23], your alter ego?
Paul Theroux:
In one sense, yeah, he's kind of an alter ego. Maybe evil twin, because he doesn't read. There are a lot of people who just think a book is just a problem. And they're like, "Don't give me a book, I'll have to read it." So in a sense, an alter ego, I suppose. But a lot of what I feel about aging or losing your mojo. When these Hawaiian guys said, "You can run with us." I thought, great, because if I have a problem, they'll help me. And in fact, now and then you do have a hoolie, and you go over, and you've got to get back in the boat. And these guys are good. They're strong, they're workmen, they work at Schofield, they're cleaners and handymen.
So, I mean, I don't want to go paddling with a bunch of writers. It'd be horrible. There'd be a bunch of selfish, unbalanced people. But the idea of real paddlers. So, in that sense, yeah, Sharky feels he's losing it. You're a young guy, so you don't know this. But, there's a tipping point, I suppose, where you think... I have a kayak that's very heavy, it's hard to put on the roof rack. It wasn't always that heavy. I used to sling it on the roof rack, but, maybe it's waterlogged. No, it's not. It's Just heavy. [inaudible 00:13:54]. But that's the kayak that I took. I mean, I paddled all around New Guinea and the Trobriand Islands with that. It's a kayak that you can assemble, it's a folding kayak, a German. The German military used it. So it's a great, great kayak. You can fix it, you can paddle it. But anyway, you notice it. I mean, maybe surfers at a certain point say, my board is getting heavy, I've got to get a lighter board, or something like that.
Guy Kawasaki:
I put a handle in my board because it's too hard to carry.
Paul Theroux:
But you know, the other thing about it is, there's a whole aspect of surfing that's changed. I know the surfers who are over 65, 70, especially the ones who are over 70. They still surf. Jock Sutherland, for example, who's a tremendous surfer. He's 74, I think, still surfs. But he makes his money fixing... He's a roofer. So, that's part of the book too, which is, the whole nature of surfing has changed. People used to be fun, Who is the best surfer? The one having the most fun, that's the great surfer. Now, it's, Who is the great surfer? It's the one with the most endorsements. There's a lot of competition out there, and a lot of fancy moves that people make. So the book is also about that transition, it's not young guys out shredding the waves anymore. It's guys wanting their picture on Surfer's Journal, and getting an endorsement. Because there's money in it. For a very, very small number of surfers, there's a lot of money. For the others, they're just on the waves.
It's also dangerous. It's risky. Just yesterday, a guy, he's in the hospital now, [Shona Sig 00:15:48]. He was at Pipeline and he wiped out. Badly banged his head on the reef, and he was unconscious. Guys went out for him. But he was wearing a helmet, but his helmet was all smashed. So, the average person doesn't realize that, the non-surfer, that you're better off wearing a helmet on certain places. They think, "Oh, it's just a bunch of dudes just running." But actually, you do need protection at some places. That's kind of interesting, that you can, not only drown, but you can have your head cracked in.
So, my friends and acquaintances up here, have generally been surfers. You get a plumber, and the plumber will say, "I'm coming tomorrow." And then he doesn't come, because he surfs up. He'll say, "Oh, I was surfing, but I'll definitely do it tomorrow." So, everyone's a part time surfer. I think the great guys are actually the people who do it for fun, part time. I love it when the plumber says, "I'll definitely come," and then he's surfing. I think, "Well, there's a guy living his life." I can wait another day, I don't care. I'll fix it like Jock on the roof.
Guy Kawasaki:
Do you hang out with John John Florence and Jamie O'Brien?
Paul Theroux:
Not with O'Brien. I know John John and his mother. Garrett McNamara is a very good friend of mine.
Guy Kawasaki:
Yeah? Doesn't he have a house in Mokuliea, or [Halu 00:17:26], or someplace [crosstalk 00:17:27]?
Paul Theroux:
Exactly. Mokuliea. But that's part of his income, it's like Airbnb. But I wrote a piece about him for Smithsonian, about riding the big wave at Nazare. I knew him before then, but then I saw him and I said, "Did you write about this?" And he said, "Well, yeah." So, someone wrote a book about it, but I said, "I want to write about it, but in a way to use it as a motivational piece." How to ride a monster. And in fact, I suggested we write a book together, how to ride a monster. Because a lot of it, it's mental, it's psyching yourself up for [inaudible 00:18:07], 78 foot wave. It's not just about experience. It's about where is your mind at, where is your serenity? How do you stay calm [inaudible 00:18:19] in the way.
So we talked about that, but we never wrote the book. But I wrote the piece, it was in the Smithsonian, about maybe two years ago. It was a cover story. I love the guy. I think he's a great guy. And his brother [Liam 00:18:32], is also a good surfer. He's a much tougher character. The other thing about surfers is, they come from nowhere. They're just from nowhere, they're not necessarily educated or anything like that. They start out skateboarding, and then they leave skateboarding, and they start surfing. And they just do it with a passion. So, that's kind of admirable. I understand people who do things with that amount of passion.
Guy Kawasaki:
Thank God that I took up surfing at 60, because if I had taken up surfing when I was a kid in Hawaii, there is no way that I would have accomplished what I accomplished in my career. I am truly a Dick. I'm going to go surfing right after this recording.
Paul Theroux:
Will you wear a wetsuit?
Guy Kawasaki:
Oh, yeah. It's 50 degrees in the water. Yeah, yeah.
Paul Theroux:
But you've surfed in Hawaii, [inaudible 00:19:35]?
Guy Kawasaki:
At 60. I'd never surfed until... Literally, I had never surfed until 60. That's a little late to start. Oh, yeah.
Paul Theroux:
But I would have thought that, surfing without a wetsuit, and a lot of paraphernalia that it might make it easier.
Guy Kawasaki:
Well, but I don't live in Hawaii. You know what? Hawaii has coral, and sea urchins, that I don't have to deal with here. So, that's some positives.
Paul Theroux:
That's true. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Guy Kawasaki:
Garrett and I were both Mercedes-Benz brand ambassadors. So we know each other that way.
Paul Theroux:
How were you a Mercedes brand ambassador? I know he was. But how were you?
Guy Kawasaki:
In what sense?
Paul Theroux:
How did you become a Mercedes brand ambassador?
Guy Kawasaki:
Well, Garrett McNamara is a world-class surfer. Roger Federer is a world-class tennis player. And somehow Mercedes believed that I was a world-class evangelist or marketer or something, social media user, and I wasn't going to disavow them of that [inaudible 00:20:37].
Paul Theroux:
Oh, I see. Okay.
Guy Kawasaki:
Yeah.
Paul Theroux:
That's great. Huh?
Guy Kawasaki:
Yeah. Yeah.
I have to also compliment you that, that section about the [Punahou and Roosevelt 00:20:47] dynamics. That was just brilliant. I mean, it's so true. I went to Iolani, which would have been even worse, but oh my God, the Punahou and Roosevelt dynamics in that book is just fantastic. When I was a kid I got hijacked on a public bus twice, so, I could just relate to almost everything you were saying.
Paul Theroux:
Did you, really?
Guy Kawasaki:
Yeah, yeah.
Paul Theroux:
Who hijacked you?
Guy Kawasaki:
I don't know, two [inaudible 00:21:12], I suppose. It was a formative experience. Have you come to embrace eating spam? Has that entered into your culinary repertoire?
Paul Theroux:
No. I'm not spam [inaudible 00:21:26].
Guy Kawasaki:
So you're not local yet.
Paul Theroux:
No. You mentioned Zippy's, I'm down with Zippy's, I'm Zippy's all the time. But spam, is not... Here's my take on spam. Okay? I wrote about it, I told you. So in this book, The Happy Isles of Oceania, it's all about the island culture, spam, corned beef, pea soupo, as they call it in the Samoa, all that. And I reached the conclusion, maybe a flawed conclusion, that, we aren't the great spam eaters. There were islands noted for a history of cannibalism, and I started to think that spam approximates the taste of human flesh. In New Guinea, they call humans long pig, because they're eating each other. And I thought, spam just reminds me of something... It's like, there's something corpse-like about it. So, where you find spam eaters, Fiji, they used to eat, cannibals, I don't know.
Guy Kawasaki:
Okay. I see where you're going.
Paul Theroux:
Tonga, Waimea Valley.
Guy Kawasaki:
I'm friends with Andrew Zimmern. Bizarre Foods, Andrew Zimmern.
PART 1 OF 4 ENDS [00:23:04]
Guy Kawasaki:
... with Andrew Zimmern, Bizarre Foods, Andrew Zimmern. He goes all over the world eating bizarre foods. And Spam is one of the only foods that Andrew Zimmern will not eat just [inaudible 00:23:11].
Paul Theroux:
Tell them what I said.
Guy Kawasaki:
Yeah, I will. I will. I absolutely will.
Paul Theroux:
I described that in the book. I mean, you could point them to the book. But what I'm saying is fanciful, but it might have a grain of truth.
Guy Kawasaki:
Last question about Hawaii. I read the article that you wrote in the Smithsonian about Hawaii being such a closed society. And I was in the reality distortion field, so can you explain that? Because when I read that, I said, "What is he talking about?" So how is Hawaii so closed?
Paul Theroux:
It's closed, because all islands are closed. An island is not one for all, all for one. An island is typically a very divided place. Easter Island is probably the best example of it. Easter Island, although it's small and it's only one island, it's only one little dot in the Pacific, was constantly at war. Those big Easter Island statues were pulled down by Islanders, not by missionaries, not by Captain Cook. It was by people fighting. What is the most common material culture item on an island? It's a weapon. Clubs, spears, knives made of sharks teeth, club. I mean, I collect them, actually. I have them. Here's one. Here's one from Samoa. Okay? See this? [crosstalk 00:25:00].
Guy Kawasaki:
Okay.
Paul Theroux:
Okay. Okay.
Guy Kawasaki:
I truly do. Yes, yes.
Paul Theroux:
Okay. I collect them. I have maybe 100 of them here. I was going to write about them. But so why is it divided? It's divided because people are very suspicious. What's a characteristic of Hawaii is different weather systems. Micro climates. Kalihi Valley weather is different from Waipahu weather. It's different from Waikiki weather. It's different from Kailua weather. So people live in different weather systems. They live in different landscapes, some fertile, some not fertile, some hot, some dry, whatever. So ethnic divisions, religious divisions, weather divisions.
That piece was about how an island is divided into separate islands. Even it's divided into [foreign language 00:26:01]. An [foreign language 00:26:02] is a pie-shaped section, but you know what? Two of them is a moku, an island. So there are islands upon islands.
Why is it true in Hawaii? I would say every succeeding person, all ethnic groups that comes on the island is suspicious. Did anyone come to an island with a good intention? Seriously?
Guy Kawasaki:
Yeah.
Paul Theroux:
So you've got people on an island, Nantucket Island, Martha's Vineyard, the Isle of White, Ireland, Iceland, wherever it is, someone comes to shore. Is that person coming to shore to do good, to improve the lives of people? No. They come to take something away, either or to create something for themselves. No one ever comes on an island with altruistic motives. They come to convert, to develop, to do something. So the natural suspicions of people on island make them fractured and divided. So that's one thing, and that's not true only of Hawaii. It's true of all islands. So islanders are suspicious people. They're not welcoming. They're not like people in Iowa, Nebraska, Northern California, wherever. "Come. Yeah. Set up, build a golf course. Everything's fine." And people have a very good reason to be suspicious. So I think that's true of all islands, but I also think in Hawaii, you have the Kanaka Maoli, the native people, the islanders who have been here for thousands of years. Well, anyway, almost 2000 years. No one's quite sure of the number, but as much as two. And they're diminished.
My grandmother was Native American. She's from a tribe called the Menominee. She was born in Canada. She's French, spoke French, but she was Native American. I'm very keenly aware of what happens to Native people. They get decimated, they get diseased, they get converted, and things happen to them.
So the other suspicion in Hawaii, and also part of the piece, is Hawaiians, who are not only suspicious of other people, but very reluctant to tell their story believing that you're taking their story from them and you might get it wrong. You might pervert or use it for your own ends. So there's lots of reasons for this division, but it exists. And it's perfectly understandable. So it's very hard to write about Hawaii. And when you do, people will say, "You got it wrong," or, "That's not how it is."
A previous novel of mine is called Hotel Honolulu. And when Hotel Honolulu came out, it was well reviewed everywhere, except Hawaii. The worst review I got was from Hawaii. And it was from a guy at the University of Hawaii, Haole guy, saying I got it wrong. But there's a little bit of overlap with Hotel Honolulu and this book, Under The Wave At Waimea. There's a couple of episodes that connect it.
But anyway, so you read the piece. I think it's really hard to write about Hawaii. And it's a thankless task, too, that anyone who writes it, that when someone writes about Hawaii, the worst ... Hanya Yanagihara has no reputation in Hawaii. Susanna Moore is unknown. Writers here, they're suspect. It's not a great thing to be a writer in Hawaii, because you're seen to be someone taking something away, profiting on the wisdom or the culture, being a kind of parasite. Well, I mean, that's partly true. You are. I mean, a writer is sort of parasitical. But for all these reasons, I see Hawaii as very divided. And when you think about it, let's say you're a Mormon. You would live in Laie. Let's say you've recently come from the Philippines. Where would you go? You'd go to Waipahu, where you'd find lots of people speaking Ilokano. Would you go to Kahala? No. Who speaks I;ocarno in Kahala? No one.
And when James Mitchell was married, his wife was Japanese extraction. He was forbidden to buy a house in Kahala because his wife was Japanese. That's another story, the segregation. And there were stories from the 1960s of a Haole girl with her Japanese nanny going to the Outrigger Canoe Club. And they say, "Well, okay, you can come in, but the nanny has to stay out there." They wouldn't let the nanny come to the ... I mean, they're shameful stories. And when you tell them or you remind people, people get very, very defensive about it.
But my father-in-law was Chinese, but fourth generation or third generation, anyway. And we were on set at the Elks Club, and he said, "When I came back from the war," he was fighting in Guadalcanal. He said, "I couldn't join this club." I said, "Why?" He said, "It was very exclusive," meaning they wouldn't let a Chinese guy join it. That memory is also another reason for the divisions. And as a person from Japanese extraction, you may have heard stories or you may know this yourself, but there's a secret history of Hawaii just known to locals, just known to locals, not to the smiling travel writers, writing about Mai Tais at sunset.
Guy Kawasaki:
To this day, I won't set foot in the Outrigger Canoe Club.
Paul Theroux:
There you go. Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely.
Guy Kawasaki:
And going to the Waialae Country club was just off the table, I have to tell you a little insight into my personality. So a few years ago I started bringing my family to Hawaii and using VRBO or Airbnb or whatever. We would always rent a house at Diamond Head, because we wanted to be near the Waikiki breaks. And I will tell you, there was a part of me that says, "Guy, you have truly arrived, because now you are in a house in Diamond Head." So from Kalihi Valley to Diamond Head, that was a long journey.
Paul Theroux:
No, I totally understand that. But if you don't come from ... A person who doesn't come from here doesn't understand. Imagine the journey, imagine the distance from Waianae to Kahala.
Guy Kawasaki:
Oh, God.
Paul Theroux:
It's an unbridgeable distance. It's an unbridgeable distance. And I mentioned this in my piece, I think, how a woman's, saying how a group of singers from Waianae were going to the mainland. And I said, "Well, they went to the mainland. Would you ever have them in Kahala?" And she looked at me like, "Well, why would anybody from Waianae want to come to Kahala?"
So anyway, that's history. That's the culture. My wife said that The Advertiser was not delivered to local homes. It was only delivered to Haoles. She said it was certain-
Guy Kawasaki:
Really?
Paul Theroux:
Yeah, yeah. So that's why Chin Ho started the Star Bulletin.
Guy Kawasaki:
Really?
Paul Theroux:
That's what she said.
Guy Kawasaki:
I learned something.
Paul Theroux:
Anyway.
Guy Kawasaki:
So now let's go from Hawaii to Mexico because I want to hear about the Genesis of On The Plains Of Snakes.
Paul Theroux:
Okay. That's pretty simple. I was working on this book, the Waimea book, and a novel. A novel is hard. You sit down every morning and you think, "Well, now what?" You know, when you write, it doesn't flow. You're going very slowly and deliberate. Although I've written 30 plus works of fiction, it's never easy. It doesn't get easier. So I'm working on it, and Donald Trump starts running for President and disparaging Mexicans. And I remember that one of a formative experience that I had on the Mexican border was walking and being in Southern Arizona and walking across the border from Nogales. Nogales, Arizona, there's a big fence. I mean, a really big iron, steel, rusty fence, and with a door in it. I walked through the door and I think, "Holy God, I'm in Mexico." And people are eating tacos and singing. And then I walked back.
So I was thinking, "I've traveled my whole life, but I've never had the experience of go through the fence, and suddenly you're in another company. Walk through. National borders are not like that. In African countries or India, Pakistan, or wherever, China and Russia, there's a road and you could see what ... There's no man's land. But I've never had the experience of going through. So Trump says, "They're rapists. They're murderers, they're gang bangers. They're coming, they're taking our jobs," and I don't know, all this stuff, which it wasn't true. He was also saying the border is terrible. So I put my novel aside and I thought, "Here's what I'm going to do. I want to write about Mexico. I speak Spanish, but I can improve my Spanish. And I'm going to write about the border. And then I'm going to buy a car, an old car, and drive around Mexico."
Now, the last road trip book was a book called Deep South, where I drove around the South. And I discovered road trips are really fun. Also, because I live in Hawaii where road trips are unthinkable. I thought, well-
Guy Kawasaki:
You can drive to Kahala.
Paul Theroux:
Yeah, you can drive to Kahala. It's 45 miles. Okay. But I recently drove from Boston to LA in six days, 500 miles a day. I did it just after Thanksgiving to get here. And it's the most fun you can have. Five nights, six days.
But anyways, I thought, "I'm going to drive up and down the border and then I'm going to drive into Mexico." And then the real incentive was people saying, "Don't do it. Oh, don't do it. It's dangerous. Don't do it. You're an old guy. What's the point?" And I was thinking, "When everyone says don't do it, I think, well, have you done it? Do you know?" It's like people say, "Be careful surfing," and you say, "Well, are you a surfer?" "No." I hate ignorant advice.
So the book, to answer [inaudible 00:37:48], came out of that, Trump. My ignorance about Mexico, although I'd been there, but I'd never really spent a lot of time there. I'd never talked to a lot of Mexicans. I never lived in Mexico, and I'd never driven in Mexico. And I realized there's a lot of complications. To take a car into Mexico, you need insurance, you need an import vehicle, import permit. You need to bribe people. There's a lot, a lot of paper. But once you do it, then you're bulletproof. You say, "I've got all my paper. I got all this and that." And the cops hassle you, and they ask for bribes. So you have to play ball.
But I thought the other thing was travel is great when you're discovering something. And every day I was in Mexico, I discovered something, a new word, a new phrase, a new friend, a new item of food. I was constantly discovering. And that helps you on your way. So I thought, "I'm going to write about Mexico and destroy the stereotype." So to write about Mexico so that people see they're people. Furthermore, Mexico, you're sitting in a town that was once Mexico. It was Spanish. It was a Spanish town full of Mexicans and Spanish people. The whole of California was Mexico. Texaco was Mexico. New Mexico was Mexico. Arizona was Mexico. Nevada was Mexico until 1848.
So we're sitting on ... We took this away from Mexico, the West and the Southwest, and people don't understand that either. So having a sense of history is also important. That Mexico, it's a neighbor. And the other thing I thought, "I'm going to be a teacher. I'm going to be a student. I'm going to teach writing or English or something like that, then I'm going to study Spanish." And then I wanted to go all the way down to Chiapas and meet the Zapatistas. So I did the whole thing and I drove. I never had a problem driving. Although I was in some bad weather and bad roads, but it wasn't bad.
And it was an experience that was so wonderful. And the book was well reviewed. It did well. It's still, you can buy it. It's there years later. And I felt it was kind of an anti-Trumper book, because the Trumpers hate Mexicans. Now, I understand the whole immigration issue is complicated, but certainly to bring Mexicans into it is racist and horrible. The idea of Chinese illegal immigrants paying $50,000 to guys to get them through a tunnel into San Diego, that's a different story. That's not the Mexican story. Or Afghans, Nigerians, Congolese, Syrians going over the border. They're called special interest aliens. That wasn't my subject. That's a different subject. The idea of Mexicans with a rich culture, great writing, things that people don't know about Mexico. Great musicians, great playwrights, great artists, as well as really clever people, building Chevrolets for us, all that.
And I told Mexicans constantly, "We're on the same road." The road that I took from my home in the East, Cape Cod, Massachusetts, I drove, I said, "It's the same road." I get on the road. I drive down across the border. That's the same road that we're on. It's always been the case. So that's where the book came from politically.
When I finished the trip, wrote the book, writing a travel book isn't a big problem. The trip is the problem, getting through it, getting alive and all that. Then you sit down and you write the book. When I finished the book, then I resumed writing this novel. And then I finished this novel, and that's ... So my last book was about Mexico. And then I finished this novel, and that's where it came from. I put it aside.
Guy Kawasaki:
(singing).
And nothing "bad" happened to you after all the warnings of, "Don't go across there, don't drive there," all the warnings that you wrote about in that book, nothing happened?
Paul Theroux:
Yeah. A lot of them, yes. I had a lot. My main problems were from the police. Police stopping me and saying, your [Spanish 00:42:30] ... License plate is called [Spanish 00:42:32] ." I said, "Yeah, what's the problem?" "It's not Mexican." I said, "No, it's Massachusetts." I had Massachusetts ..." But I said, "I have these papers. I have my [inaudible 00:42:43] permit." I showed the paper, and they just brushed them away.
And I said, "What do you want?" The phrase is [Spanish 00:42:53]. How can we resolve this issue? And then the cop says [Spanish 00:42:58]. "Do you know what I could do to you?" I say, "No, what?" "I could take your car. I could impound your car." They call it a [Spanish 00:43:09]. "I can impound your car and you'll have to pay money. You'll have to get a lawyer to get it. Would it be simpler to ..."
I said, "Well, what do you want?" "$300." $300 is quite a big bribe. I mean, the first time they asked me for 300, I said, "No, I don't have 300," and then they start screaming at you. Well, a policeman with a gun and he's got a belt with all this stuff on it, bullets, handcuffs, mace, starts screaming at me, "Do you know what I can do to you?" So I had to stick to my story. So I basically I gave him ... He basically said, "Open your wallet." I opened the wallet. He just took all my money away. Very scary experience. I don't know whether you've had experience with a cop. Have you?
Guy Kawasaki:
No, no.
Paul Theroux:
I have in the states several times, where I've made the mistake of contradicting them. And they start screaming at you, and it's very bad. If you raise your voice for the cop, that's a felony, because you raise your voice. That's-
Guy Kawasaki:
And you're a white guy.
Paul Theroux:
Yeah. Yeah, exactly. Exactly. So you can imagine if you're not a white guy and you give them lip. So I've had experience getting screamed at. Okay. But I never felt intimidated. I thought, "Well, I'm going to get a lawyer. I'm going to report you. I'm going to get even with it." But in Mexico, you're in a foreign country and they're screaming and also threatened. So that happened. You asked. That happened four times. The most, 300, 250, 200. And then just a guy saying, "Oh, 180." He wrote 180 on his [inaudible 00:44:52]. Bribe.
So I had an envelope of money, bribe money. I had it in various parts of the car. I didn't want to have it in one place. So the next time I was stopped by a cop, I just said, "What do you want?" and he said, "I want $250." I said, "Okay," and I just counted out the money. And I gave him the money and he said, "Oh." I said, "Okay." I said, "I'm going." He said, "Oh, yeah, just go down there. Take a left, take a right." It was just like a tax for being a gringo, gringo tax or with a car with bad license plates.
On the border, I met a lot of questionable people, but I never had a problem. I never went out at night on the border. I never drove at night. Mexicans say, "Don't drive at night." Didn't. Always put your car in a safe place if you're stopping at a motel or hotel. Make sure that it's behind a wall, that there's a guard there. Don't leave your car on the street. It was a 2011 Nissan Murano. I drive a-
PART 2 OF 4 ENDS [00:46:04]
Paul Theroux:
2011 Nissan Murano. I drive a 4Runner on the mainland. I have a Toyota 4Runner. If I had a Toyota 4Runner, it would've been gone in 60 seconds. You know, the pumpas just and come up and say, I want you to car. And then you say, yeah, okay, here's my keys and take my car.
But other than that luck, paying bribes and not putting myself in situations where there was serious danger. The border is a dangerous place, but if you're going in daylight... I usually went with someone else if I was in a tricky situation. I've been in dangerous places. I've had people shoot at me, in Africa. I've had people pointing guns at me, in New Guinea in the Tropea Andalas. I was attacked by... I was in my kayak. Some boys would speed... They were jabbing spears at me. So I've been in ticklish situations, but I didn't have a problem in Mexico. Actually, a Mexican told me your problem is speaking Spanish. You should pretend that you're a German and say, I don't know what you're talking about. I said, what's your suggestion? He said, try to win a Golden Globe for acting when you're talking to a cop. In other words, I don't know what you're saying, like, I'm a German. I don't speak Spanish because they don't speak English. But-
Guy Kawasaki:
Clearly you were not kidnapped or murdered?
Paul Theroux:
No. Many people are. But it tends to happen in certain places. There are certain places in Mexico where you cannot go. Veracruz, near Veracruz. It's controlled by a cartel that will... They see me in my car, they'll take my car. What will they do to me? They'll kidnap me. They'd want money. They'd want my car. That's certain Tampico, Veracruz. Acapulco around the state, Guerrero state. Acapulco. Very bad for kidnappings, abductions, theft. But Cartel is-
Guy Kawasaki:
But there are places in California, I wouldn't go either.
Paul Theroux:
Well, there's places-
Guy Kawasaki:
Isn't that true in any country?
Paul Theroux:
It's true of every city in the world. I think every city in the world has an area where it's probably a good idea not to look conspicuous. I have a friend in Hawaii of Japanese extraction, third generation, I guess. Was driving a BMW in, I think it was Arizona, but it might've been Arkansas. And he was as Japanese looking as you are. And he had the BMW. And a man came up to him and said, nice car. And he said, yeah. He said, I want to buy it. And my friend... It was at a gas station. The guy says, it's not for sale. He said, yes, it is. I want your car. And gave him a hard time. This guy, he was hassled because he was conspicuous and was driving a nice car. And the guy gave him a major hard time and was going to take his car from him, hijack him, in other words. Carjack him. And somehow he got out of it, but he's told me I will never drive a BMW in middle America again.
He'll go to places where he's not so conspicuous. Where do people have problems? When you look conspicuous. My wife is of Chinese extraction. On Cape Cod, she's so conspicuous. I mean, people stare at her and thinking like what? They'd be wilted. A Black person in a White community. A White person in a Black community. An old person among young people. I wrote a piece about the New York subway. And I said, who gets mugged? They said, conspicuous people. If you're old... If you're sitting by the door and you're old, you'll be robbed because you're old. You're old and you're among a lot of punks. An old person walking in an area where just there are a lot of punks. They'll say, well, here's a sitting duck.
We're going to take you... We'll take your handbag or whatever it is. Being conspicuous can be fatal. In Mexico City, it's less possible. And Mexico City is a multi-racial place. But in other places, a gringo is conspicuous. Gringos in Mexico tend to live in communities though. I mean, this communities is where they're just Canadians. This community with this Germans. Where they're just Americans. And San Miguel de Allende is full of gringos, safe place. Other places, not so safe. But if you travel saying, I look conspicuous, therefore I can't go there, you'll never write anything.
I've been conspicuous my whole life. I lived in Africa for almost seven years. I was the most conspicuous person there, but I manage by speaking the language actually. One time a guy was pointing a gun at me. Fortunately, it was in a country where I spoke the language. It was in Malawi and I could speak the la.... I'd been in the Peace Corps and I could speak. And I said, I'm not your enemy. I'm not going to... I don't have a gun. It's not a problem. Just relax. Yeah. Talking to him. But he had a gun pointed at my face. Not an enjoyable experience at all. So.
Guy Kawasaki:
Well, let's suppose Joe Biden calls you up and says, so Paul, what's your advice for the US-Mexico immigration issue? What would you tell him?
Paul Theroux:
The first thing he has to do is appoint an Ambassador who's really good. And this is true of all countries. He needs Ambassadors in Guatemala, El Salvador, Costa Rica, Honduras, and Mexico. Really good diplomatic relations. That's the first thing you need. Trump decimated the Foreign Service. So the Foreign Service was full of political appointees, Trumpers. And Korea diplomats were phased out of the Foreign Service. So the Trump Presidency didn't destroy the Foreign Service, but weakened it, so that our relations with other countries were terrible. It had been terrible. So the first thing I'd say with the immigration process, we need diplomacy. You need someone who could talk to the Mexican president and about the border. The border, I mean, strangely enough, NAFTA is profitable for American companies making stuff in Mexico. Mexican companies don't make stuff in the States. So NAFTA is very, very one-sided. And actually it hasn't really helped Mexican workers. But it really has helped Bose headphones, Chevrolet, people making audio equipment, plastic toys, rubber tie, and all that stuff. And they make it a 100 yards from the border.
So the border is a very, very important thing. The immigration issue is interestingly enough, not a Mexican problem. Illegal Mexican immigrants are not the problem. Mexican illegal immigration has diminished. It's mainly from Central America. So the reason why you need diplomacy is that Central American, Hondurans, Guatemalans, Salvadorians are coming into Mexico. And they're in the boat. They're desperate people. So the solution has to be diplomatic. There has to be some sort of regulation. It can't be open borders, obviously. If you have open borders, it will be open season for Nigerians, South Africans, Indians, Pakistanis. The prisons in Arizona are full of Indians and Pakistanis and Africans. It's not full of Mexicans. So, it's a category called Special Interest Aliens. And they're mixed in. So there's desperate Central Americans, there's Chinese, there's Special Interest Aliens. And then these Mexicans were coming to Santa Cruz to fix your roof.
But Mexicans aren't the problem. But immigration is a problem. How you fix it is with regulation obviously, but also with diplomacy. Because the border belongs to two countries, Mexico and the United States. The other problem is the Cartels. And the Cartels, I discovered own the border, in most places. So if you want to get across the border, you see a Cartel member and no matter who you are, and you pay anywhere from $2000, $3000 up to $80,000. But if you've got the money... Syrians were selling their houses and their land, getting a chunk of money, going to Mexico and just paying a lot of money to a Cartel to get across the border. Some people have money. The Mexicans or the Central Americans go across don't have money, but they become slaves or mule that drug running and so forth. It's a very, very complicated problem exacerbated by a gun running too.
So all the guns come from the States. And there was that scandal under the Obama administration, where it was called the Fast and Furious, where they were allowing Cartels to buy guns in the States thinking they could trace the guns. One of those guns was used to kill a Border Patrol Officer and because that was associated with Biden and Trump politicized the border. Border patrol unions are Trumpers. Border patrol officers are Trumpers. Because they associate a weak border policy with Biden and Obama. But at first it has to start with diplomacy and a policy, a policy on the border. Open borders won't help. If you have open borders, what's the point? It can't be unregulated. But so, I'm not a knee jerker on that.
Guy Kawasaki:
So it seems to me that you were banned in Malawi, you were banned in Singapore. Let's say the Trump administration banned this book. Would that be just like the hat trick? Do you have a little bit of pride being banned?
Paul Theroux:
I was deported from Malawi. I was in the Peace Corps. The Peace Corps said make friends. So I made friends. I could speak the language. I made friends with a group of people who became rebels of the gut and they had a plot to assassinate the Prime Minister. Unwittingly, I did a favor for this group of guerillas. And when the plot unraveled, the Prime Minister at the time who was going to be assassinated, he's called Dr. Hastings Bunda, told the Ambassador that I was in with plotting against him. He deported me. I was kicked out of the Peace Corps. I was fined a lot of money and I was screwed. It was 1965. I was on the verge of going to Vietnam. So I did what any rebel would do. I contacted the Africans and I said, you got me in this fix, get me out of it.
And they said, okay, we'll get you out of it. We're going to get you a job at a university in Uganda. We have contacts there. We're going to make you a Professor. So with a BA Degree, and just having helped these Marxist guerrillas, I then had a job at one of the most prestigious universities in East Africa. The university, of Macquarie University. And I was there for four years as a distinguished Professor because these guys were connected. And that led to going to Singapore, where I had a job at the University of Singapore, which was great actually. Because I was then... Although I still had this crappy degree, I had a distinguished career as a University Professor. I got to Singapore. My contract wasn't renewed and it wasn't renewed because I was a holly and they wanted local people in the thing.
But also then I wrote a book about it, Saint jack. The book was banned, I wasn't banned. The book was banned. The movie was banned. But now everyone's... We're all happy... The book is read widely. It's available in Singapore. You know the game Snakes and Ladders? My life more than others, up and down, up and down. So it's been a very interesting life. I haven't written my Autobiography, but I've written about this. I've had some extremely unfortunate experiences, but I've also had some great luck. I'm now knocking on wood. Everything's hunky dory now. I'm fine. But my books were banned in South Africa. They were banned. And because my first three novels were set in Africa. And I couldn't sell a book in South Africa. When Nelson Mandela became Prime Minister, they changed the educational system. My books were unbanned and my novel, the Mosquito Coast became a textbook or a set book in schools.
My publisher called me in about 1990, '90 or '91. And he said, we've just sold 200,000 copies of the Mosquito... We've had an order for 200,000. 200,000 books. Each book is 10 bucks. I'm making 20% of it. He said, we've just had an order for 200,000. It's going to be in the schools in South Africa. So from no books to book. So I've met South Africans. They say, oh, you're Paul Theroux. We studied your book, Mosquito Coast. And then the luck of it. And so down sometimes, up other times. It's not the worst thing in the world to... You know your life doesn't end when you've been declared a prohibited immigrant. Or you've been fired. And I've been. I've been fired a few times. The best thing is... And do you have a job? Do you have an actual salary job?
Guy Kawasaki:
Not exactly. I'm Chief Evangelists for a company out of Australia called Canva, but I decided to take all compensation in stock-
Paul Theroux:
There you go. So okay you don't have a job. [crosstalk 01:01:10] You're winging it.
Guy Kawasaki:
Yeah.
Paul Theroux:
So my last job was in Singapore. And after that I thought I don't want a job. I don't want a boss. I'll just wing it. And it's worked out quite well. I really don't have a salary. My kids, I have two boys. One of them makes documentaries in England, Louis. And my other son Marcel writes novels. No one in my family has a job. So I'm a very bad example actually. But your question was about being banned, getting deported, being fired and so forth.
Guy Kawasaki:
But if the Trump administration had banned planes, it would be, I think an honor.
Paul Theroux:
It would be. Actually the best thing that can happen to you is that someone, an Influencer, reads your book. Do you know how James Bond became such an important book? An important writer? The films, the books of...
Guy Kawasaki:
No.
Paul Theroux:
You may not remember. John Kennedy was asked, who was his favorite author? And he said, my favorite author is Ian Fleming. And people was saying, who is Ian Fleming? And said, he writes James Bond book. Jack Kennedy loved James Bond books. This would have been about 1962 '61 or '62. If you look at it, Kennedy was the opinion former that made James Bond famous. I have a friend Bill Finnegan. He wrote Barbarian Days. Have you read it?
Guy Kawasaki:
Yeah.
Paul Theroux:
Okay.
Guy Kawasaki:
Oh God. Yes.
Paul Theroux:
Who was his biggest cheerleader? Obama. Obama. Obama said it. And by the way, Bill Finnegan gave me a blurb for this book. It's a great blurb. It's on the cover of the copy. Extraordinary book. Wonderful. So, that's going to be very helpful. I get Bill Finnegan in my corner. The question is, it's a no brainer. Trump says this book is crap. Trump, a man who has never read a book in his life. He says this book he'd banned it, yeah. Actually I was a reader, when I was very young reader at 13, 14 years old, lots of books were bad. Henry Miller was banned. D.H. Lawrence was banned. William Burroughs was banned. And I sought out those books. Those were the books that I wanted to read. I thought, well, they're banned. James Joyce's Ulysses was banned. You'd think, why are they banned?
Because they have power. Someone's afraid of them. Socialism once said, no great writer was ever honored by a government because writers are like a second government. The only writers that a government or a regime recognize are minor writers. Second rate writers. They're afraid of the great... I'm not saying I'm a great writer, but [inaudible 01:04:10]
Guy Kawasaki:
Yes you are.
Paul Theroux:
No, no, no. But government, when you look at it, a government never recognizes an important writer. The groundbreaking. Social knits in himself, for example. But James Joyce, Herman Melville. Herman Melville died. They misspelled his name in his obituary. Three people came to his funeral. He was nobody, no one recognized him. But I'm not putting myself in that class. But I'm saying that it's in the government's interest to own the writer that's not going to cause a problem for them. And to ban the writer. I like Trump banning my book for being dangerous.
Guy Kawasaki:
The RNC bought hundreds of thousands of copies of Trump's son's book. Right? So.
Paul Theroux:
That's the kind of thing that happens. But I mean-
Guy Kawasaki:
Yes.
Paul Theroux:
But that book has no future. I tend to think, no matter what happens, if a book is good, it will find an audience. It will do well. You don't really need a Obama to love it. Or Kennedy to love it. Good things will happen. But they happen quicker with social media, opinion formers and someone selecting it. About Biden though, his question, I mean, I don't know, this is just an aside. I don't have any indication that Biden is a big reader. I think he'd probably reads policy books and he probably reads political biography, but I don't have any indication that he's the reader that... For example, Obama. Obama is a passionate reader. Reads everything. I met Obama in Holly Eva at the hamburger place.
I said to him... It was before 2006, I guess? And I said, you're Senator Obama. And he said, yeah. I said, can I make a suggestion to you? And he said, what? I said, please run for President. I'll vote for you, and I'll give you money. He said, who are you? I said, Paul Theroux. He said, I've read your book. He said, sit down. I want to talk to you. He was there with his sister and his kids. And we were having hamburger.
Guy Kawasaki:
How funny.
Paul Theroux:
Yeah. Yeah. Right, right. Thing. So he's a reader. Kennedy was a reader. I think Carter was a reader. Reagan wasn't a reader. Maybe the Republicans aren't readers. But I don't know about Biden. It's an interesting speculation of... He doesn't show any indication that he's a reader. Does he to you?
Guy Kawasaki:
No, but-
Paul Theroux:
But he's a great guy and we need him. We need him. But I think if he was introduced to me, he'd say Paul Theroux, what do you do, Paul?
Guy Kawasaki:
Yeah. Right.
Paul Theroux:
I have a chicken farm in Holly Eva. So anyway.
Guy Kawasaki:
I have three more questions for you.
Paul Theroux:
Shoot.
Guy Kawasaki:
Okay? So question Number one is, you are arguably one of the world's greatest travelers. What's your advice on how to travel?
Paul Theroux:
This is a bad period, obviously. And I wrote a piece for the New York Times exactly a year ago, about a lockdown. It was about being locked down in Kampala, in Uganda during an Emergency. And we were stuck under a curfew for almost a month. And it was amazing. But we were just stuck. You couldn't go out. It was dangerous fighting. But it was like a pan... It was like a virus. It was like an infection. It lifted. And I said, we're all going to learn something from this and... Here it is, a year later I wrote the piece, we're still locked down more or less. My advice obviously is you have to be ingenious and like read about travel, travel vicariously. The problem will be solved in a way, I believe that it was solved in the 1950s and '60s, when there was tuberculosis, yellow fever, sleeping sickness, various malaria, various ailments for which you needed a passport. You needed WHO yellow card. When I went to Africa in 1963, I had... My arm was swollen with shots.
PART 3 OF 4 ENDS [01:09:04]
Paul Theroux:
I had... My arm was swollen with shots against diptheria, yellow fever, sleeping sickness, everything. I got them, I was in Syracuse, New York at the doctor and we went there and we had so many shots that I remember it took days to get them all. And then they were all written up in the little book. So when I arrived, I went a roundabout route Nairobi, and then Rhodesia, and then Malawi, I was always showing this passport, this little thing. That's the future. The future is even... I've had my first job at Modena and I have a little card that resembles the passport. The solution is that everyone is vaccinated. How you get everyone vaccinated? I don't know. And especially with the mutant strains.
But the future is going to be, no one's going to be safe until they're vaccinated. And no one's going to be able to travel unless you have proof of vaccination. When I came to Honolulu from LA on December 3rd, last year, I had to show a piece of paper that I had been tested and that I was negative. And I had to have the test within 72 hours of coming. The answer is a lot of paperwork then people will be able to travel.
Guy Kawasaki:
But now that's at one level. But assuming we handled all this administrative stuff, but I mean more philosophically, how do you travel? It's not just about staying at Ritz-Carltons and Airbnbs and how does one truly travel on an intellectual level, to really understand someplace?
Paul Theroux:
I think it's a greater opportunity than ever because the pandemic has been transformative. Every country in the world has been changed by it. Some for the better, some for the worst. And a writer, a traveler is doing nothing if he or she is not writing about change, about discovery, and reporting back about it. So how you travel is not for pleasure. I've never really traveled for pleasure. I've always traveled looking for a story, and looking for change. Trying to make a friend, make a discovery, whatever. So the traveler from now on, every traveler with a brain is going to be writing about the infection, the effects of it, death, crowded hospitals, tragedy, or people overcoming it. This kind of... There's a move out of cities now. So country life is more attractive to people than it ever was. And I think that will be a big factor.
The problem, I'm in touch with an African doctor. He emailed me today and he said he doesn't think that... Because I want to go to Africa. The first country I went to was in Central Africa 50 years ago. And I want to go back there because I've been writing about all these years. I want to see the effects of it. He said, I don't think you'll be able to go there until 2023. But he said, but maybe 2022 it might be possible. He was talking about mutant strains of the disease, different variants of the disease. But the answer is you travel to write about it and it will be about the plague, about the pandemic, about the... It won't about a golf course, it won't be about a new hotel, it won't be about a great meal you have. At the background will always be the infection probably for the foreseeable future. Certainly for the next five to 10 years.
And I have one more travel book to write. One I really do want to write. And it's about revisiting countries I've been in and visiting new countries. And also about teaching. I would like to teach in a lot of different places. I'd like to teach in Africa. I'd like to teach in Pakistan, in China, in the Philippines, in Samoa and also in Chicago, inner cities. I would just like it. And I would like to teach a short story, the same story at different places. So, that's my ambition. To go to lot of different places to find out what do people want? What are they worried about? But I know that the subject is going to be the pandemic. And I don't know whether the vaccine will protect it, was it towed to prophylactic against the disease but we'll know. Because I think... Think of how events have moved.
That a year ago people thought... Trump was saying, "Gone by the summer." Even some people were saying, well, maybe we'll get over it by Easter. Maybe this summer, maybe the hot weather, maybe. A year later, people are still speculating. So we're in this very interesting period of, "We don't know anything. We don't know anything." Month by month, we're discovering. Today the death in the United States is half a million. I just looked it up. It's half a million.
Guy Kawasaki:
It's mind-boggling.
Paul Theroux:
Unbelievable because I started tracking it when it started. Every week, how many cases, how many deaths, and I looked today yeah, half a million. No one guessed this, no one guessed this. And I think that one of ways of looking at the future is to seize the present. To look at the present intensively because the seeds of the future are in the present, but not everyone sees them.
And maybe if this had been see... A year ago, if people had looked at it and looked at other plagues, other pandemics, they would've said a year from now, we're still going to be in trouble. But people were saying, cheerleaders were saying politicians and they were, "You don't need a mask. It's going to be okay." Or Trump was saying drink hydrochloric acid or whatever the hell it was. So we don't know, but I think it makes travel more interesting. It will make it more of an adventure. And the frivolity of travel is disappearing. The seriousness of travel is the important thing. Because the thing that you learned in travel, when you were a little guy just setting off and you go to a foreign country, you realize how small you are, how unimportant you are, and how important other people are, and how you have to listen.
A travel book isn't about eat, pray, love. I had a great meal, I went on a wine tour down the Rhine. I played golf in 50 places. That's not travel. Travel is you're small, the world is big, there's a lot to learn. And the pandemic is a tragedy but it's also an opportunity for a writer to get in inside it. And what is the real story? How is this actually affecting people? And it's affecting people profoundly.
Guy Kawasaki:
Second to the last question. As the writer to another writer, I'd love to know your tools of the trade. Are you writing it down on a legal tablet? Are you working in Microsoft word? How do you write a book?
Paul Theroux:
I write a book with this. And this is a ballpoint pen. Every book I've written, the first draft I've written with a ballpoint pen. This pen... This is a Lamy pen, and I've written it on, I don't have an example here. But I write in longhand. This book, the [inaudible 01:17:08] book. The surfer book is all written. I sold my papers to the Huntington libraries four years ago. They had to send a truck to pick up my papers. They sent not thumb drives.
Guy Kawasaki:
Oh, literally?
Paul Theroux:
Yeah. They sent a truck. It was this small van truck. But was a truck and three guys, and it filled the truck with papers. I have a paper archive. I'm maybe one of the last people with a paper archive. You could talk about word processing programs, I wouldn't know what the hell you were talking about. I guess I use Microsoft word. I use a program because I write in longhand and then I make a scribble draft and I recopy it in longhand. And then when I have a manuscript, which is all written, but then I photocopy it for safety. When I have the whole thing written out, then I put it down and then I type it. I used to use a typewriter and now I use a word processor. But I don't write on a word processor. I don't write on a computer.
A computer is to me is just... I use for typing, which is very relaxing. A typewriter was very exhausting being a typewriter. So traveling, I don't have any technology. I have a phone but I don't tape record anyone. I take notes and I've trained myself to transcribe people's conversations after the fact. So I have a conversation with you about all the things we've talked about and then I go away quietly and I write down the conversation. That's a mental exercise that I've practiced over the years. It seems to work. I've never tape-recorded anyone. I've never done Zoom or Skype with anyone. I traveled with notebooks and I fill up notebooks and I have the note... Then I take the notebooks and I write it out. So it's all with ink. Pen and ink, pen and ink, pen and ink. And then the pleasurable thing is typing it and it's work but I don't have a secretary. Because the secretary wouldn't be able to read everything. And then when I'm typing I'm also expanding and lodging upon it.
The process of writing is very mysterious. And I don't think you can teach someone how to write fiction, but you can teach them methods. You can't make them funnier or more intelligent but you can tell them.
And sometimes when people ask me, I wrote this thing but I'm not happy with it. My advice, I'm not a teacher, but I said, well, do you want my advice? Yeah. Yeah. Well I do. And I said, well, here's what you should do. You should sit down at a desk, put it down and recopy it in longhand. And do you know the answer I always get, oh, that's too much trouble. I couldn't do that. It's 5,000 words or 10,000 words or it's 2,000" or whatever it is. That's too much trouble. I couldn't do that. I've done it my whole life. And when someone says that, I say, "You're not a writer. You will never be a writer." I don't want to tell them that. But I think you will never be a writer because writing is labor, it's work, it's very hard. Writing, thinking, rewriting. And writing in longhand slows you down.
So I can't tell you the number of times, I said, oh, you got to copy it on longhand. And oh, no, I couldn't do that. Well, Shakespeare did it, Herman Melville did it, I did it. Lots of people do it. A computer tends to speed things up. It doesn't... Most of writing is thinking. It's thinking what am I going to write. It's not tapping away with your fingers. So I think the whole thing is... I write at the beach as I told you.I have a folding chair. I sit at the beach and I'll write on a clipboard. And then I recopy it, I recopy it. And at the end of the day, look at the first page of this book. I rewrote that page, I won't say 50 times, maybe 30 times. I sat down and I rewrote it in longhand. I retyping it, I corrected it, I retyped it.
So just the first page. I wanted the first page to set the mood of it. So, you know the guy, where is he, and I could say even maybe the first chapter I rewrote, rewrote, rewrote. It wasn't just typed. And I don't know whether it shows or not but I could tell. I mean, if I read the book, if that was somebody else's book, I would say this book was written slowly and carefully. Whether it's a success or a failure or not is beside the point. But you could tell it's written with care it's not just typed. So technology has not served me very well. I accept that. I mean, I think that a word processing program is stupendous. I think it's the best thing ever. It's beyond Gutenberg, way beyond Gutenberg. So, I mean, that's a great thing to write with light rather than type.
Guy Kawasaki:
I'm going to send you something that maybe will help you. But that's... I won't get into it, it's a tablet, pencil based that you might like. And it's called a reMarkable tablet. And it sponsors the Remarkable People Podcast.
Well, that was a smooth in-context plug for the reMarkable tablet. And now we have the reMarkable tablet sponsored question, which is how does Paul do his best and deepest thinking? Because the reMarkable tablet will help you do the same. It is a single purpose tablet. It doesn't de-focus you with email, social media and all the other craziness that can take you off track.
So my very last question, although we've been touching on this for quite a while is a very direct question, which is how do you do your best and deepest thinking?
Paul Theroux:
Very, very good question. But I would say two ways. One is the ordinary meditation of just sitting quietly at the beach, looking at Kaena Point, looking at the Pacific Ocean just sitting there reflecting. But there's actually a better way. For me, riding a bike, paddling a kayak, walking, walking especially. But I sometimes ride my bike to Mokuleia and then I go up to Peacock Flats up the Ridge. I did it on last Sunday, I got a flat tire actually. But riding my bike alone up a steep grade. So you have to go slowly that I think, I don't know if this is true for everyone, but for me, the reflect that... There's something about exercise, maybe runners feel it. Walking definitely is one, that my mind begins to solve problems and I get ideas and I can't write them down, but I refine them as I'm exercising.
And I'm not talking about vigorous exercise, riding a bike. I'm talking about what might be riding along a road or paddling a kayak on a smooth ocean, not fighting the waves. But there's something about the evenness of exercise. I compiled an anthology of travel 10 years ago may be. It's called The Tao of Travel. And The Tao of Travel is about every travel book that made an impression on me. And one of the chapters is called it is Solved by Walking is from a Latin, solvitur ambulando. Solvitur ambulando to means it's solved by walking. You have a problem and your wife is doing the dishes and the kids are watching television. You leave the house and you walk, and you walk and the more you walk, it will be solved by walking.
So there are a lot of books about walking. Henry David Thoreau has a great essay about walking. But there are many great... Russo was a Walker. Henry... William Wordsworth was a walk, a lot of walkers. And so the answer is sitting quietly, but I'm restless and I find it hard to get a meditative pose, I suppose, doing yoga might help. But definitely there's a certain kind of exercise. It wouldn't be weightlifting, it wouldn't be surfing. But it might be swimming, it might be walking, it might be riding a bike that would allows me to reflect and to have good ideas I think.
Guy Kawasaki:
I'm just curious. So does Paul Theroux, does he ride some $25,000 road bike that weighs about two pounds? Or is it a beater bike Schwinn that one speed coaster brakes?
Paul Theroux:
I got two bikes. Neither one is... The guy I ride with has a $9,000 by a Seven. It's called a Seven. It's a great bike. Nine grand. The most expensive bike I bought was a Merlin titanium bike, $4,000 bike. I bought it in San Francisco. It's city cycle. So it's a great bike, but it's not a climber bike it's a road bike. And now you could buy it for two titanium bikes are now, are cheaper. The bike I was riding the other day is just a probably costs 1500, 2000. I bought it second hand. It's a good climber bike, specialized but it doesn't prevent you from getting a... I got a thorn, a kiawe thorn in the tire and so I went about three and a half miles up and got the flat and then I had to walk three and a half miles back to the road, back to my car.
I was looking at bike when I got my tire fixed yesterday, I was looking at bikes. One bike was 10 grand. And my question, I was going to ask the guy but I did not. My question was going to be, "If I buy this $10,000 bike, will I be able to get up that mountain quicker?" The answer is maybe, maybe not.
The happiest day of my life in Hawaii, one of them was riding my bike to the top of Haleakala. So I started down a place called [Osmo 01:28:04] campground and I camped and I rode to the top. And I just remember going very, very slowly, particularly above 8,000-feet. But I do think that there's a type of work gardening makes you think. Certain activities induce meditation. And so I'd be down with that. As far as expensive, my outrigger canoe cost five grand. I got it new. That seems a lot of money for a kayak, but it's Kevlar carbon fiber and weighs 19 pounds. It's great.
Guy Kawasaki:
Speaking of a sort of small world. So one of the people that I interviewed for this podcast was the founder of Specialized. If you will ever consider an electric specialized bike-
Paul Theroux:
No, no, no.
Guy Kawasaki:
Oh my God, I have a Como electric bike. It's a life-changing bike but...
Paul Theroux:
I don't want an electric bike but I would like a top of the line. I'll even-
Guy Kawasaki:
Specialized?
Paul Theroux:
I'll even endorse it. But the one that I saw the other day, it might've been a specialized. So the top of the line specialized bike. I haven't specialized it. I mean, I get a lot of money. It's not about money. It's just about the bike was good. But it's not about money but I'd like to know based on the bike that I have, which is a great bite it's beat up bike. I mean, the guy goes and says, your bike's rusty. I said, well, it's Hawaii. This is an off shore. Of course, it got rusty parts, but it goes. But I'd like to know whether I can get a bike, non electric bike, whether there's a specialized bike better than mine that can get me up quicker, like more gears?
Guy Kawasaki:
I hope you enjoy this episode as much as I enjoyed interviewing Paul. Lots to learn from Paul. Writing, traveling, hanging out with locals, all kinds of good stuff here. My thanks to Rick Smolan, the famous photographer and guest in a previous remarkable People Podcast. He made this interview possible. My thanks to Jeff C. and peg Fitzpatrick, who as always helped make this podcast great. Until next time I'm Guy Kawasaki, and this is Remarkable People. Mahalo, and aloha. This is Remarkable People.