Deepa Purushothaman

Guy Kawasaki:
I'm Guy Kawasaki. I'm on a mission to make you remarkable.
Today's remarkable guest is Deepa Purushothaman. She is a warrior, author, speaker, and co-founder of nFormation.
nFormation is a community created by women of color for women of color. Its purpose is to reimagine traditional power structures to not just help more women of color get their seat at the table, but to change the way the table is formed.
Prior to this, Deepa spent more than twenty years at Deloitte, and was the first Indian-American woman and one of the youngest people ever to make partner.
She's also a Women and Public Policy Program Leader in practice at the Harvard Kennedy School and an Aspen Fellow.
Deepa has degrees from Wellesley College, the Harvard Kennedy School, and the London School of Economics.
Her new book, The First, the Few, the Only: How Women of Color Redefine Power in Corporate America, should be read by every leader who wants to remain relevant.
I'm Guy Kawasaki. This is Remarkable People. And now, here is the remarkable Deepa Purushothaman.
First of all, please, can you say your name?
Deepa Purushothaman:
Yep. It's Deepa Purushothaman.
Guy Kawasaki:
Wow! That is a mouthful.
Deepa Purushothaman:
It is a mouthful. Thirteen letters. So it's Puru-shoth-aman.
Guy Kawasaki:
How long does it take to make an airplane or hotel reservation?
Deepa Purushothaman:
It takes a long time.
Guy Kawasaki:
You probably don't have custom license plates with your last name on your car.
Deepa Purushothaman:
I do not. I do not. It's funny, when I got married, I got married later in life, I didn't change my name. This is my maiden name because my husband's name wasn't much better. So yes.
Guy Kawasaki:
I was just wondering. Kawasaki is hard enough. Most people think I'm Polish, but your name, wow!
Deepa Purushothaman:
It was not easy. I was the last kid in kindergarten to get my star for being able to spell my name for sure.
Guy Kawasaki:
Just being able to spell your name should mean you win the spelling bee, but-
Deepa Purushothaman:
Yes, it should.
Guy Kawasaki:
If a man with identical qualifications using the same email server configuration who on his watch had the same amount of people killed while he was Secretary of State in an attack on an embassy ran against Trump in 2016, would that man have won?
Deepa Purushothaman:
Yes, because I believe part of the challenge that was in that election was that Hillary was a woman and that we don't see leadership as women. We struggle wrapping our head around that the president of the United States could be a woman.
So I think there were so many things displayed in that election that to speak to the themes that I really want to talk about, that leadership needs to look different, that qualifications and what is a leader need to be redefined.
So, yes, I do believe that that would've played out very differently if Hillary wasn't a woman running for president.
Guy Kawasaki:
Will the hypothetical "Walter"... Will he know he's Walter when he reads your book?
Deepa Purushothaman:
That's a great question. I want to believe he will. I definitely changed his name, but there's enough facts of this story that I think he should know who he is. But part of being a Walter is not necessarily knowing you're a Walter and being a little bit oblivious to the situation.
So to be honest with you, I'm not sure.
Guy Kawasaki:
Let's give him benefit of the doubt that he's aware enough to figure out he is the Walter. What's he going to think?
Deepa Purushothaman:
I think times have changed. That was a few years ago. I want to believe that the Walters of the world have awoken to the challenges around that. I think I'll probably get an apology.
What's so interesting to me in the work that I do and even just the stories I've told prior to this book is I've had a lot of people from my past reach out and apologize to me, a lot of white men.
Guy Kawasaki:
Really?
Deepa Purushothaman:
So unexpectedly. So I want to believe maybe he'll reach out and have something to say about it and we can have a discussion about it. I don't know that he'll know how deeply that wounded me in the moment.
I think that'll be the surprise. Not the comment because that wasn't the first, or the only thing he's ever said. But I think how deeply that wounded me and the fact that I still carry that will surprise him.
Guy Kawasaki:
Right about now, tens of thousands of people are wondering, what the hell are they talking about? Who is Walter? So maybe you could just give the gist of that story.
Deepa Purushothaman:
So I went to graduate school with Walter. Walter and I made partner in our respective firms around the same time. I tell the story how I'm celebrating with Walter at a bar in New York and we're toasting and I'm explaining although I made partner, I'm really... And I made partner in a large global firm.
I was the first Indian woman to do so. There's a lot of firsts that come with that, to just explain the pressure I was feeling. I said to Walter, "I am really nervous about what comes next for me and not messing it up and all eyes are on me."
And Walter, without missing a beat, turned to me and said, "Well, you are a twofer. You have nothing to worry about. I'm a white man, I'm going to have a lot to worry about. People like me have things to prove. You're going to skate by." I'm paraphrasing the words in the book.
It was shocking to me because he was a good friend, probably my best friend at that point. It really hit me to my core. So that's the Walter story, is that even in situations where someone's a friend, it can be a really challenging situation.
Guy Kawasaki:
I was just curious because that was a risky story to tell at the start of your book. I loved it.
Deepa Purushothaman:
Yeah, I think it's necessary though. A lot of the data shows that a lot of white men, especially in corporate America, are struggling with the idea that they're losing seats. That folks like you and I, as we get seats, they're losing.
There's actually research that justifies that or that backs that up that says that... E&Y did a study and asked white men how are they feeling, and they said they're afraid that they're losing as a result of a lot of the DE&I initiatives.
So I think it's something... similar to your Trump question, something that we have to talk about, that there is this feeling of winners and losers. And unless we change that idea that there is a pie that we're all fighting for, I think we're going to continue with that challenge.
Guy Kawasaki:
Call me idealistic, but wouldn't you think that if you realize that the competition is getting fiercer, you would up your game as opposed to try to change the rules of the game. What am I missing here?
Deepa Purushothaman:
I think people try to do both. Part of what the book is about is this structure has been created in such a way, and I think until recently, we haven't had permission to talk about the structure and how it was created, and who it was created for and how it works.
So I think where possible people who sit in power are going to try to change the game whenever they can. That's part of how the system has worked for a very long time, and people like me are now asking, is that fair? Is that right? And how do we actually create a system and a process and a culture that works for everybody?
Guy Kawasaki:
Give us the gist of what it's like to be a woman of color in corporate America?
Deepa Purushothaman:
Yes. The gist is, it's hard.
The gist is, there is a lot of trauma that's happening, there is a lot that has been unsaid. So it's ten chapters talking about what the experience is like.
I interviewed over 500 women of color and what came up quite often is that there is a lot of extra work that women of color are asked to do around culture building, around mentoring others, around things as a result of being a first few and only that aren't compensated. There is a lot of pressure as the Walter story talks about because all eyes are on us.
There's so few of us, especially at senior levels, that anything we do, positive or negative, creates quite a level of visibility and a level of pressure. We don't see role models that look like us and there's so few of us that there's such a need to code switch and to edit how we are and how we show up.
We don't usually see leaders that look like us, and so unless you have a good way of processing the imposter syndrome and all the other things that come up for us as we navigate spaces that don't look like us and weren't made by us, maybe don't even want us there, it's a real challenge.
So what I'm trying to lay out is, not that we can't make it, not that we're not powerful, not that we don't have skills to bear that would actually be helpful to corporate America, but that this idea that it's a meritocracy and that the system shows up the same for you and I, is actually a flawed way of thinking.
We had to be really open that there is an extra burden and a significant burden that women of color bear as they navigate spaces that were not made for them.
Guy Kawasaki:
What specifically are examples of it's not a meritocracy even though it appears to be a meritocracy or you think it's a meritocracy?
Deepa Purushothaman:
The example that I like is... And it's in the first chapter of the book, is I sat down with Vernā Myers who's the VP of Netflix of Inclusion, and we were talking about airplane design. She's a black woman.
We were talking about inclusion in corporate America, and she brought up this idea of airplane design and how as a mom, when she gets on the plane, she struggles with the idea that you put your luggage above your head because she doesn't necessarily want it to fall on her children.
So it wasn't designed for moms in mind. I shared with her I'm five foot one and I traveled sometimes three cities a week. So for me, airplanes were a really big part of my life in my old world. I'm five foot one, so the struggle of getting my suitcase above my head when I first get on an airplane is real. I spend a good fifteen minutes before I get on the plane worrying about that, and it's a very stressful experience. Then I look at the white man sitting now next to me in the airplane who's maybe five foot ten or taller, he doesn't even think about that.
Isn't necessarily even thinking about the things that Vernā thinks about.
So the idea that we weren't consulted, we weren't there as part of airplane design was being thought of is the same analogy that I take to the corporate space.
Corporate culture, corporate systems didn't have me in mind when they were created, and so as a result, they weren't made for me and don't work for me. But I also share a lot of the microaggressions and racism.
I can't tell you how many times a day as I would navigate my workday I would be dismissed as the partner in charge or the leader in charge because people would look at me and think I was young, or I was little, or I wasn't senior enough to actually have those titles.
Although I've learned ways of navigating around that, it really undermines you.
So for me, it's a bigger question of how do we define leadership and what do we think leadership looks like and how do people... Candidly, Guy, how do people... When we walk into spaces, how do we change that definition and start to think about that differently.
Guy Kawasaki:
Do you think the law that requires women directors in California is going to help the situation?
Deepa Purushothaman:
I think it will help the situation in some ways. Early data suggests it's helping white women, so it's not necessarily helping women of color.
So I think we have to parse out who we're trying to help. But I also, to be honest with you, think this is the whole question of quotas in some ways. And our quotas, a good idea or a bad idea. I've evolved my thinking on it.
Years ago, if you had asked me that question, I would've fought it because I wanted nothing to do with quotas because you end up with that Walter toofer comment, you just got the seat because you are a woman or a woman of color or whatever the quota is.
I think I've gotten to the point that workplaces aren't working, and so we have to do some unnatural things or some additive things to really change them.
So I worry less now having spent a lot of time in this work, about how we get the women in the seats and the women of color in the seats, I just want them in the seats.
But I also think the bigger question is, once they're in the seats, are they able to be in their full voice? Are they able to make change? Are they able to actually be supported? Because just getting to the seat, I think, is part of the challenge we have.
We've spent so much time and energy talking about getting to the seat, but if they can't actually be successful or change or bring up new ideas once they're in the seat, then is it really changing anything? That also needs to be part of the discussion.
Guy Kawasaki:
What is your advice for getting over the imposter syndrome?
Deepa Purushothaman:
My advice is that we have to rewrite those messages. I have two chapters in the book around shedding and carrying this idea that we have to shed messages that don't serve us, and carry forth messages that do. But it's really hard internal work. It's really sitting down with yourself.
When you get into difficult situations, what I have found is there are usually a dozen messages that you've been taught from childhood. You're not enough, you're not good enough, you're not smart enough, those messages.
And it's really starting to rewrite those. And lot of women, the messages around imposter syndrome come from childhood, come from the experiences we've had in school or with our families, or just in the media of not seeing ourselves.
So we have to get more focused on how we rewrite those narratives.
But it's hard. I would say the other thing that I have found is I now have a community of women that I lean on that I didn't have when I was in corporate America.
So finding others and realizing that my experience is not unique to me, that almost unanimously the women of color I speak with have so many of these shared experiences, is really freeing.
So for me, part of my work is realizing the structure is created in a certain way, there are certain behaviors I can change, but some of that is not mine to take on. Some of that is about what other people also believe, and so I can only take on my part and change my part.
So for me, that has freed me quite a bit, but it's taken me decades to get to this place.
Guy Kawasaki:
You state in the book that there is enormous pressure to "be someone else". What are the characteristics of this theoretical someone else?
Deepa Purushothaman:
Yeah. This someone else that I'm talking about is the white male leader that came before me for decades.
This idea that they are assertive, they are aggressive, they are self-assured, they carry themselves in a certain way, and that maybe they don't lead with things like empathy or gut feeling, that there are these other characteristics that are also important in leadership and that we need to open the aperture of how we think about leadership.
That's really what I'm talking about. I do this exercise when I speak at events.
It used to be in person and now it's over Zoom, and I say, "Think of a leader. What do you think of when you think of a leader?" You'd be surprised... I mean, maybe not surprised, but everyone in the audience thinks of a white male executive, or a white male politician.
They don't think of people that look like me and that's part of what we have to change. If we don't change that, what's happening is, most of us are unconsciously and consciously being taught to emulate that model and the behaviors and what even power looks like in that model.
That's what I'm really talking about changing.
Guy Kawasaki:
But we seem to be... I don't know if we're in a downward spiral, but we're certainly not in an upward spiral. Without these heroes and role models and your parents telling you to be a certain way, how do you break out of that rut?
Deepa Purushothaman:
For a lot of the women that I've met, and even the people that I've met, some of it comes down to you face a life experience or something doesn't happen in your favor.
For a lot of the women of color, something has happened where the system hasn't shown up for them, or they faced some issue of racism, or they didn't get a promotion that they were clearly in the running for.
So those situations really make them question, what just happened to me? And asking bigger questions around the structure and the process.
I think that's a lot of it, is that once you encounter something that doesn't feel right, and you've done all this work to get to this place.... And I spoke to a lot of senior women. That was really the challenge, that they really realized that just working harder wasn't going to do it for them and that they had to really pick and choose something else.
So it's usually some sort of a life event, I think, that pushes you in this way, but I'd also say I think a lot of people are questioning this space that work takes in their life right now as a result of COVID and everything that's happened for the last couple of years.
You see a very different conversation about how people want to work, and where they want to work. Although my book is written for women of color, I'm asking bigger questions around the space that work takes in our life and how we work and how we create spaces that actually work for everybody.
So again, although that is what I've written about, I think this book in a lot of ways applies to some of the experiences of people in my peer group, men in my peer group who have young children who just have really struggled with, how do I actually spend time raising my children? How do I spend time at home because what's being demanded at work is just grown to such an extent it's hard to manage?
Guy Kawasaki:
If you look back, it seems like this entitlement syndrome is just locked and loaded. How do you think it came to be like that? Maybe I'm just naive or idealistic, but it seems to me that business is so competitive, and one of the major competitive advantages is people.
Why would you cut your genetic pool in half? Why would you only focus on men? It makes no sense to me. What am I missing? How did this entitlement syndrome come to be?
Deepa Purushothaman:
I feel like almost two or three questions in that, Guy. One is entitlement in itself. Where does that come from? Candidly, that comes from a history of white patriarchy.
I mean, we can talk about that and how the systems were built and what underpins capitalism, so that's one set of conversations.
But I think the other question you're asking is, aren't workplaces leaving something on the table in the choices that they're making? And yes, that's the point.
I think part of what's happened is we are continuing to remake models of leadership based on what has come before without really understanding that it's not just what's come before, but we've actually widened who's actually in the workplace.
As a result, we have to open up that definition of leadership in a different way.
So I think it's a yes.
Part of what has come up out of the research is that women of color have all of these other experiences, what I call lived of experiences, that aren't valued when they're recruited or when they advance in the workplace.
Those lived experiences of navigating, literally colleges, universities, earlier work experiences where they weren't valued, or they weren't really seen and having to make a voice for themselves have made them really valuable workers, and yet, that voice is muted.
So part of, I think, the message is not just entitlement. It's that there are superpowers... I like that word, for women of color, that we aren't really focused on because we tend to look at the same things that have come before for innovation and for definitions versus opening up the definitions.
I think that's where we are. If this moment doesn't cause that, with COVID and all the other pressures we're facing, and all the entrenched global issues that we're facing, when is that going to change ever?
Guy Kawasaki:
Is one solution or one path just to wait the bastards out and wait for this generation of white men to die?
Deepa Purushothaman:
No, I don't think so. Because if you look at the stats, it's going to take us to 2050 or 2060, or later in a lot of ways because companies have looked at that information.
So unless we're willing to wait that long, I don't think so.
By the way, I don't think the planet can wait that long.
I think we need more voices sitting in seats because of where we sit as a planet right now. So, no, I don't think so. I also think part of the challenge is it's... And this is the difference. It's also the structure.
We're talking a lot about the people sitting in the seats, but I also think we need to change the structure. So if we don't get more women and more diversity into those seats themselves, you can't actually change the beliefs and the culture and the processes even.
Part of what is most fascinating to me, one of the most fascinating things in the research, was how much women of color are penalized when they speak their truth, how much the processes don't support them.
Even though we say in this day and age after George Floyd's murder that we want to talk about racism more, we want to make systems open and processes open, so many of the women of color were penalized for telling their truth.
It's not just changing the people, we have to change the processes and the structures too. I don't want to wait because then we're just going to be changing those processes and structures in twenty or thirty years and that feels like too long to me.
Guy Kawasaki:
You discussed a technique called ‘shedding’ and you mentioned it earlier in this interview. But I would like you to take a deep dive into this.
What is shedding? How do you do it?
Deepa Purushothaman:
Shedding is really just unprogramming. It's really this idea that we are indoctrinated with a lot of beliefs. I explained before that idea that I'm not good enough, or this idea of what success is for me.
I'll use my own example. I grew up in an immigrant family.
My parents came from India. They worked really hard to get what they got. So there was this idea that success was very tied to working hard. So my super power for very long, I believed, was I could outwork anybody.
I could work twenty hours a day. I could work three days in a row and not necessarily need to sleep or eat. I was highly productive. Part of my work in shedding was realizing that that shedding actually didn't serve me. I ended up getting really sick from overworking and the stress related to that.
So shedding for me was sitting down and realizing those ideas and those practices and those values don't work for me anymore.
So how do I reprogram them and rewrite them in a different way? That work is really about getting quiet with yourself. It's really about looking at your life and saying, what is working for you and what is not and how do you change that?
I tell a story of a woman in the book who was diagnosed with breast cancer. Similar to mine, she was an overworker. Part of what she ended up having to do is really take stock of her life and realized that she needed to take care of herself and her health.
And that was part of success and that was part of leadership and part of what she should also be striving for and rewriting, shedding the belief that, again, just getting to the top was enough. Part of her process was really rewriting that the idea of health and happiness and wellness was bigger than that.
Guy Kawasaki:
Do you think that men and in this sort of rigged game, do you think they're... Well, it's not fair to lump them all together, but-
Deepa Purushothaman:
Correct.
Guy Kawasaki:
... you can have a finer answer than the crudeness of my question.
Deepa Purushothaman:
Okay.
Guy Kawasaki:
But do you think there are clueless? Do you think that this is purposeful and this is the plan? Do you think that if they learn about this in your perspectives that they will have an aha moment and change their ways?
Deepa Purushothaman:
Yep. I don't think everyone's the same. I think some of this goes back to the Trump question we started with. I think there are people in different camps, and I think we have to understand that, and we have to talk about that.
What has surprised me in the book just in the process of releasing into the world is how many allies and white male leaders have shown up and asked me questions and asked to understand.
I wrote the book for women of color selfishly. I wanted the book I never had when I was navigating corporate America. So it's very much written in a voice for women of color, I write it to women of color, I don't explain my definitions.
There's some shorthand in the book. It's actually white male leaders that are saying, "I had no idea," and, "Help me understand." So I would say, no, they're not all the same.
But I also think that it's hard when a system benefits you, or when there are certain things that work in your favor that you don't even appreciate, or you can't even acknowledge to keep it in the way it is.
So I think there's one camp that is very aware of what they're doing, and they want to keep it that way. I think there's one camp that may be not so aware, and then there's one camp that wants to make change and there's a spectrum across all of those things.
Guy Kawasaki:
Let's suppose that you are a young woman, and you are highly qualified, so you're sought after, and you can pick from various companies to work for.
From the outside looking in, are there specific tells that would indicate this corporate culture, structure, zeitgeist is just not going to work, I need to stay out of this? What are the warning signs?
Deepa Purushothaman:
I think it's looking at the senior leadership as a start. I think it's looking at the three layers below that, because candidly, most senior leadership is not diverse enough that it would make me go to a company at this point.
But I would want to look three levels below and see what's happening. I would be also looking at folks at my level and even below and are there stories?
I would be going to places like Glassdoor where you can read what's going on and understand culturally are women getting promoted? Are women of color having challenges? I would look to see if there are any suits or any public cases where there are challenges.
In a way, what is happening, I think, is women of color are doing more due diligence. I think that more than ever, to your point…Women of color call me every week because of the seat that I'm sitting in with my organization.
I help women of color find safe space and meet each other at a very senior level. So I have a lot of them calling me saying that they're getting calls from recruiters and how do they sort through these options that they have in a way that they've never had calls before?
What I tell them is that they have to do their due diligence to really see are companies doing actually what they say that they want to do. It's not just about getting hired, it's about what happens after they get hired.
So I think it's a little bit of looking up, and looking down, and honestly reaching out to women of color and reaching out to other people within the organization and saying, “What are you feeling? What are you seeing? Can you share with me? Is this a great place to navigate?”
Guy Kawasaki:
And internal employees will really answer that?
Deepa Purushothaman:
Yes. What I have found is that we are willing to help each other if you ask.
So, women of color, I can just go to LinkedIn and find four or five women in organization. If I reach out and say, "I'm considering coming, can we have a chat?"
Yes, it's changed. And I think more-
Guy Kawasaki:
Really?
Deepa Purushothaman:
... employees are doing that than ever before.
Yes. I probably wouldn't call the C-level and ask that question because they're probably going to tell you it's all wonderful.
But if you call women at a different level and have a very off-the-record conversation, like, "I'm considering between two options. Here's what I'm being asked for," we're helping each other in a way I've never seen before.
Guy Kawasaki:
Again, call me naive, but one of the points that surprised me in the book was your observation that HR is not necessarily on your side, that HR is in the business of making the company successful.
Deepa Purushothaman:
Yes.
Guy Kawasaki:
Not making you successful.
Deepa Purushothaman:
Yes.
Guy Kawasaki:
So can you go into that.
Deepa Purushothaman:
That surprises you. Yes. That to me was not shocking, I guess, because I've spent time in so many different companies as a consultant.
Yeah, a lot of HR processes and a lot of HR organizations are set up to legally protect the company.
So when you actually formally file a complaint about racism, or sexism, or harassment, they're obliged to follow certain protocols to take that to fruition.
So what we have found or what I have found just in the last year and a half around race is that most companies, one, are not set up to handle race. So they don't have the right people in the seats and they're literally to trying to figure out the protocols right now.
But secondly, it's so bad to admit that there's racism going on that when women come forth and share their complaints, there's a lot more pressure to, "Can you prove it? Tell us what really happened."
And if you fast forward six months to a year, most of the women who end up filing complaints end up leaving as a result of companies not showing up for them because there's so much fear around what would happen if a company, or a person, or a senior executive in a company was labeled racist.
So it's a real issue. And I think it's something I encourage women of color to understand because a lot of people will tell them, "Racism doesn't just happen. Someone just said something inappropriate, go to HR." And I tell women of color you have to really understand who your HR is before you do that.
Not all HR groups are set up the same with the same interest and the same processes or the same intent. Maybe that's the right word.
Guy Kawasaki:
What if you're working inside an organization where making a claim or a complaint, much less filing a lawsuit for sexual harassment or racial prejudice, is career ending or at least career limiting?
What are you supposed to do, leave?
Deepa Purushothaman:
That's what most women of color are doing. I believe it's chapter six in the book I talk about almost a dozen... And I'm saying VP-level and above.
So C-suite women, who I talked to who as a result of an incident happening, they spoke up, they felt like they were fully empowered to speak up given their level and their tenure, they spoke up and the company turned on them. And that is quite a frequent occurrence.
Again, there is that whole conform pressure, that whole, "This is our company too and we don't behave like that." So I think there's a little bit of denial happening and it's real. So yes, a lot of women of color at that point leave and they go do something else.
Guy Kawasaki:
Many companies have this VP of inclusion or some such similar title. So is this window dressing? Is it abdication to one person saying, "Okay, that person's handling it."?
It's like having a chief innovation officer. That person is in charge of innovation, we don't have to worry about it anymore. So this person is in charge of inclusion, we don't have to worry about it anymore. So what's your take on VPs of inclusion?
Deepa Purushothaman:
I encourage the women who call me to take those roles if they're set up in the right way. So the right budget, the right number of staff, they report to the CEO. There's a whole bunch of other things that have to happen.
And I'll be honest. I don't love the title itself, because to your point, it can in certain companies advocate responsibility just to that one person when it should be an entire company responsibility.
I believe inclusion and all of that work starts at the C-suite, but it happens in day-to-day interactions at a manager level.
That's really where most employees feel whether they belong or not, is at that manager level.
So I think sometimes, in some companies, having one person sit in that seat allows them to feel like the issues, the programs, all of it is being taken care of without doing the work.
I wouldn't get rid of the role, but I don't think it alone is enough.
There's a line in the book that's one of my favorites where I talked to an executive and he said, "I think those roles are propaganda." I think in some companies that's absolutely true and we have to be honest about that.
Guy Kawasaki:
How do you tell when it's propaganda versus reality?
Deepa Purushothaman:
I think it's all those things I talked about. Do they report to the CEO? How often do they have direct channel? It's the budget, it's the staff, it's actually what the company is doing on all the other days of the year other than just that one inclusion day that they claim.
It's really what's felt and seen. And again, part of what I think this is all getting at is that you have to talk to the employees to understand that. I think more than ever, we're in a moment where employees are being honest and we're walking with their feet if it doesn't make sense in a very different way.
Guy Kawasaki:
We discussed the issues with meritocracy. How about we discuss the issues with the theory of so-called color blindness?
Deepa Purushothaman:
Yes. For years, I would navigate spaces where leaders at all these companies I worked at would say, "Well, one day we'll have a color blind society," or, "I don't see color. It's not a thing that I see." It would always make my stomach turn. It just never sat right with me.
And I think now I can better articulate. One, I think that denies my experience as a woman of color where I'm saying I'm having all these issues as a result of how people see me, and you're negating that by saying you don't see color, or that doesn't exist.
I think that's a problem. I think, secondly, that's not how the world works. That's not how people work. We were born with these things. So I think that's also really important, Guy.
I'm not saying a person is bad or good based on this. I'm saying these are all things we are taught and we can unlearn. So to say you don't see color dismisses any responsibility, I think, you have in understanding what the true situation is and the work that you have to do.
I've never met a person who hasn't made a mistake in this space, even the best of... I've made mistakes in this space.
So I think we're all learning. And so to say, "I don't see color," or, "I'm color blind," is really denying reality of what actually happens in the world.
Guy Kawasaki:
If a leader were to say, "All I hear about is competence," and let's say he... There has to be a he, right? Let's say he is honest and this is really true, "All I care about is competence." Is that believable? Is that useful? Is it optimal? Or is it just delusional?
Deepa Purushothaman:
I want to put value on competence as well. I wouldn't just pick a woman of color if their competence wasn't there. That's not at all what I'm saying, so I think that's important.
But I also think it's denying the reality of what's happening. There's data in the book and there's been a lot of studies done that we tend to favor people who look like us or who have similar interest to us or who we think are like us.
So there is a lot of bias in the recruiting and the hiring process that allows white leaders to continue to hire white employees as a result of what they think is comfortable.
That's an example of where I think it's not just competence, there are other things that are happening, like unconscious bias, and even conscious bias in the system, that if we don't correct and acknowledge that, it will continue to happen.
That's why the pipeline in some ways is the way it is, because we exist, it's just a lot of companies don't know where to look for us because the processes weren't created to actually find us.
It's more of a network effect where you tend to recruit and hire and favor the people that... That happens not only in the hiring process, but it's also happening in the promotion process.
So when a leader says that, I think they can have the best of intent, but they can't with data show me that that's not what's happening within their companies. That's the disconnect.
Guy Kawasaki:
A few months ago, I interviewed a person from Amazon who was Jeff Bezos's chief of staff. He told me that one part of Amazon had an issue where... To cut it short, there were too many males.
So what the recruiting department did was they established a rule that any female applicant and resume would get a call back. That wasn't true with men. Men had to jump over the fence, but any woman got a call. Do you think that is a useful kind of-
Deepa Purushothaman:
Intervention.
Guy Kawasaki:
... at least first step... Yeah, to improve the pipeline?
Deepa Purushothaman:
All the devil is in the details. So it really depends how that's executed in all of that.
To me, it's a similar to the quota question. Am I okay with maybe some unnatural interventions to get us to a place that feels like we're maybe seeing people that we wouldn't normally, or what's happening that only men are applying for those roles or that are showing up?
At the same time, I don't want a situation where we're doing unnatural things on a regular basis ongoing if we start to solve for those things.
So I think there's potential danger in that process. I'm okay with it, but I would want a lot of unearthing, a lot of questions, a lot of protocols. I would want to check in on it every ninety days to understand if it's not doing something inappropriate or unnatural. But what that shows me is something is happening at that level or in that hiring process that is flagging for people.
Maybe there's something here and we need to explore it and now we need to put some things against it, but maybe there's some other things that can be done.
Are there women in the department that maybe are ready for promotion, or we can put some sponsorship processes around that would get them more ready? I don't think that's the only intervention. If you just told me that intervention without context, I'm not sure I love it.
But I also think that we're in a place like the Rooney Rule that a lot of companies and a lot of places are doing right now to actually make sure there's one woman candidate in a recruiting process, is another example of that.
And I think, again, maybe it gets more women looked at, so I'm not against it, but how it's done is just as important as the rule itself or the intervention itself.
Guy Kawasaki:
Just for clarification, the Rooney Rule that you're referring to, is that in the NFL, there had to be at least one minority person interviewed for the head coaching job, right?
Deepa Purushothaman:
Correct. Yep.
Guy Kawasaki:
Okay.
Deepa Purushothaman:
So companies are taking that, literally that title of the Rooney Rule, and applying it to certain jobs. I know a few companies, at a VP level, they're saying, "We want to apply the Rooney Rule to women." So you have to at least have one female candidate in the discussions as you're looking at candidates for your VP role.
That's how it's showing up or translating in certain company context.
Guy Kawasaki:
Which is total bullshit.
Deepa Purushothaman:
Okay. Tell me why.
Guy Kawasaki:
It's total bullshit that, "Okay, so we checked the box. We interviewed one black guy, now we can go hire the white guy." I mean, that's what it comes down, right?
Deepa Purushothaman:
You're saying it doesn't solve for the problem. Yeah. I understand that. Yeah.
Guy Kawasaki:
Yeah. What's the dangers of something like every female gets at least a call? What could go wrong?
Deepa Purushothaman:
Yeah. I think the danger in something like that can be that at some point it's not seen as fair, or that at some point you're spending a lot of resources maybe talking to people who don't meet a certain threshold of criteria or certain level of what you're looking week for.
I think that's part of what is the danger. At the same time, to jump back to our lived experience conversation, part of what I do is help a lot of companies look at senior levels and also starting to look at board placement.
What I'm talking about is the fact that women of color bring a lot of lived experience that's not valued in those processes.
So if we just look at, have they had a global experience or have they managed a large P&L or some of the things we traditionally look at, we may not get as many women, and especially women of color in those experiences, because we're new in some of these spaces, we haven't had all of that history. There's a small group of us, but there's not tons and tons of us.
So part of what we have to do is change the definition of what qualified looks like.
I'm okay with some of the change, but I think just blanketly looking at everyone who applies, it's not probably the best use of resources. There's probably other things we can also do and how you described it to me.
But I have to believe there's probably more to that story or more that they're doing. I can't imagine anybody who applies gets the call.
Guy Kawasaki:
You had one of the best turn of words or phrases that I have ever encountered. So I want you to explain this because I just loved it, okay?
Deepa Purushothaman:
Okay.
Guy Kawasaki:
It was “How to change the game while you're playing the game.”
Deepa Purushothaman:
Yes. There is a chapter in the book that has that title. And I struggled with that chapter, Guy. I didn't want to write it because I feel like there's so many books on how to play the game. And my whole feeling is, we need less of us to be playing the game, we need more of us to be changing the game.
I met with this amazing woman, Kia, who used to work at the NFL and now she has her own firm where she really goes deep into discrimination or racist incidents, literally uncovering and looking at the data and figuring out what to do with it.
We were deep in a conversation and she said, "Deepa, we need to do both. We need to be doing both." So that's really talking about, how do we advance? How do women of color advance in the current system while we're making change against it?
I think it would be remiss of me to not give women of color some thoughts on how to navigate the systems that we're in right now. That's what that phrase is about, that we have to intelligently play the game where it's necessary. But my work is really about trying to get less of us to play it, because the more we play it, I think the more it takes from us to be honest with you.
Guy Kawasaki:
But I really want some tactical tips about how to change the game. Yeah. Yeah.
Deepa Purushothaman:
There are three levels. So women who are just entering the workplace, women who are advancing, and then women who are closer to retirement. I call it learn, earn, and return phases of your career, and that there are things you can understand and really learn when you're in the learn phase of your career.
And that playing that game is really understanding what the culture is about. What is the culture of value? What is really important to get promoted, is an example.
Part of the playing the game and doing this differently is women of color maybe sharing their pay information. I had a couple of companies and examples where younger women, more than older women, and I want to see more of us doing this, were sharing their pay information to figure out where they being paid equitably, and was there issues with what they were getting paid versus others?
So I think it's sharing information, being really helpful, but understanding what it in the company context you're in to excel, and especially as women of color, then making choices around what you do around that.
There's another example in the book that I love where I talked to a recruiter, Jenna, and she said to me that women of color don't always negotiate in the right ways. We don't tend to ask for what we think we deserve. She gave me examples over and over again about how some of the white men she works with will ask for two-times or three-times what they were getting in their previous company when they're in final discussions or interviews at the new company they're going to.
They would literally ask for three-times what they think they deserve or what they got before without any fear or any expectation that they're going to get it.
All the women of color I've met, and Jenna was sharing her research as well or her conversations as well, most of us edit ourselves. We will maybe ask for 10 percent more than what we had before not because we're afraid of asking, although I think that's part of it, more because we're afraid of the “No”, like somehow that is shameful if we don't get the two or three-times amount.
So part of playing the game is realizing you can ask for it, but it doesn't reflect necessarily badly on you if you don't get it. That's an example of playing the game.
So it's a little bit of understanding and changing what we have emotion around. That's really what I think playing the game is a little bit.
Guy Kawasaki:
I will tell you, Deepa, that I have never met a man with imposter syndrome.
Deepa Purushothaman:
Ever?
Guy Kawasaki:
Never.
Deepa Purushothaman:
I know a few.
Guy Kawasaki:
Well, then those are the only ones in existence because I was just thinking about what you were saying about playing the game and men asking for two or three times.
Let's just not go down that hole. I mean, my point is that it's a rare thing for men to discuss the imposter syndrome, the delusion syndrome.
Deepa Purushothaman:
I might have a different opinion on that.
Guy Kawasaki:
Okay.
Deepa Purushothaman:
I actually think it exists, but I think men aren't taught to share that, they're not taught to be vulnerable around that. I have a lot of men who've shared that with me, when I've shared with them, and we've had a private conversation. But if it was probably two men sitting there, they're not going to share that.
You all puff your feathers. That's more of what you do with each other.
You don't talk about the challenges you have. But I think it exists, I just think it's not rewarded in the same way or it's not safe to talk about that, to be honest with you.
Guy Kawasaki:
I stand corrected.
Deepa Purushothaman:
No, we can choose to disagree on that. I think maybe that's one of my next experiments, I go delve into that a little bit more.
Guy Kawasaki:
You also discuss how and why women of color get in the way of, or prevent other women of color from succeeding. That sounds illogical to me. Why does that happen?
Deepa Purushothaman:
Let me tell you how I got to that. So I'd meet with all these women, I'd get way into like an hour-long interview, and at the end, the last ten minutes, I would say, "Is there anything I haven't asked you?"
And the women of color would drop their voice, you could literally see the shame on their faces, and they would say, "Can you talk about how we don't help each other? How white women don't help us," which came up every single time, "but then also how we don't help each other as women of color?"
We ended doing some research with Billie Jean King. My company, nFormation, my business partner, Rha, did some work with Billie Jean King and that came out in the fall. Got rave reviews and we've actually recently done a Ted talk on the same topic of this idea of we don't help each other.
And I share that all to say... Because I think it's fascinating, everyone's really fascinated by the topic. I think it's partly because there's so few of us. So there's this idea there's one seat, and that we're all competing for it.
This idea of tokenism, how we started the conversation. So there's maybe one seat for a woman of color or one woman at the C-suite or at the board. And that idea, even though it's not set out loud, I think there's a lot of suggestion around that.
And I found that in my own research. Women felt like there was only one opportunity at a company or at a level. As a result, there is an unsaid competition that happens amongst us. Part of what I want us to realize is no one told us there was one seat at the table.
We don't have to accept that. Why is there only one seat for us? So how do we change that conversation so it doesn't feel so competitive and we realize that we're not competing against each other, even earlier than the seat? That's really what has to change.
Guy Kawasaki:
Do you ever feel like, "Oh my God! Can't I just be myself and be a career woman? Why do I have to bear the cross of every other woman trying to succeed and be their mentor and help them, otherwise I'm a selfish person and et cetera, et cetera?" You ever that where you're just, "Why do I have to bear this cross all the time?"
Deepa Purushothaman:
I'm going to speak for myself, and then I'll speak for the women I met. I think it's part of what I always navigated because I was a first. That was just always there.
Part of why I also wanted to make it was not just for myself, but to show the other people behind me that it was possible. I chose a very male-oriented career. I traveled, I also picked spaces that were like that.
So I think that's part of what comes with the choices I made. But I also would share with you that most of the women of color I've interviewed have this sense of responsibility that feels very different than when I speak with men.
This is where I do see a difference. We feel a sense of responsibility that is part of what we think our work is, not just the job we were hired to do, but to mentor others and to change the culture and to do all of these things, which is hard because in one breath I'm telling you we want to do it and it's literally in our DNA, and the other breath, I'm also saying, "But we also need to be rewarded and paid for it at the same time because it's a big burden."
So yeah, I wish I didn't have that, but I don't even know how to separate that. It's always been there.
Guy Kawasaki:
What do you think was going through the minds of white men over 50 when they watched the Super Bowl halftime show?
Deepa Purushothaman:
Great question. I think there was probably a lot who thought that was required, that was done to appease people.
But candidly, I think there were a lot of people that were wrapping their head around, is that music? Is that what America is? Who is this for?
I think it speaks to the fact that we have a few different Americas going on right now and people with really different thoughts on who America is and I think... Similar to the election.
Yeah, the Super Bowl halftime show was probably shocking to some people.
Guy Kawasaki:
As it should be.
Deepa Purushothaman:
Yes.
Guy Kawasaki:
As it should be. Let's pretend that there are Deepas in high school listening to this podcast. To summarize, what's your advice to them?
Deepa Purushothaman:
My advice is, you can be and do anything, that you are a leader and don't let what you see around you limit what you think is possible. And that there are strength numbers, so find your sisters because you're going to need them at some points. And that this road is hard, but you are not alone.
There are a lot of things that are going to happen to you that you might question, “Is it me?” I want you to know it's not you, that some of this is the structure, but that you have the strength and the power and the possibility of changing the game. So I'm really excited for you and also here for you.
Guy Kawasaki:
After the interview. I thought of something I should have asked, so this phone call happened the next day.
Deepa Purushothaman:
Hi there. How are you?
Guy Kawasaki:
I'm fine. Thank you.
So, I thought of something I should have asked in the interview, but I wasn't smart enough to ask you in real time.
Deepa Purushothaman:
No problem.
I was thinking of the same thing. I was running through questions and answers yesterday as I was trying to fall asleep.
Guy Kawasaki:
It must've been a slow night.
So, when you told the story about how you’re a five-foot one woman, and you're thinking about how to put the luggage in the rack and that causes you great anx and that's an example of a systemic problem where women weren't involved in the design of the plane.
Deepa Purushothaman:
Correct.
Guy Kawasaki:
So I should have immediately asked you this question, cause I'm really curious.
Now I thought about that last night, which is if you're a five-foot ten man, and you see five foot one women trying to get stuff into the luggage compartment, are you supposed to help her? Are you supposed to offer to help or are you supposed to say, “God, I don't want to insult her by saying, oh, you're a short woman, you know, I'm going to help you, honey.” What should I do?
Deepa Purushothaman:
Yes, it's a great question. And I love it. And I have to say, so for me, I can't speak for all women or women of color or shorter women, but for me, when someone offers for the most part, I graciously and thankfully say, yes, I would love the help.
It usually, by the way, comes as it's hoisted over my head and just about to go in, it doesn't usually come before.
So just so you know, and at that point I'm kind of committed. So yes, I will take whatever help I can get., I appreciate the help. And so maybe it's more how the help is offered, right? It's not, I’m a savior rescue sort of context, it's a genuine, “I see you struggling. So this is not a hard thing for me to help you do.”

Guy Kawasaki:
Okay. So I just, you know, there may be men who are just doubling over thinking. “I don't want to insult her by offering her health because she's going to take this personally.”
Deepa Purushothaman:
I know, it’s hard guy. Like it's the same thing with opening the door, right? Like there's such mixed feelings on opening the door.
So usually at that point when it's over my head hoisted, I'm usually at the point where I'm sweating, I'm turning red…there's a whole process going on for me.
I will take the help, but the next woman next to me may not, and it may also depend on the energy that the man approaches the situation with.
Like that savior complex versus I genuinely just want to help.

Guy Kawasaki:
Okay. That's all I wanted to ask you.
Deepa Purushothaman:
Your listeners will have to let me know if they get flack for offering and it backfires.

Guy Kawasaki:
I'm going to ask you one more, one more question and we may or may not use.
Deepa Purushothaman:
Okay.

Guy Kawasaki:
So, tell me to just step back if this is inappropriate.
So I saw the video and clearly you didn't just wake up. I mean you were made up right.
You were all together, you weren't just waking up.
Deepa Purushothaman:
No, no, no. I was not just waking up.

Guy Kawasaki:
So do you feel that as a woman, you have to make yourself up to be on a zoom call, whereas a man doesn't… is that one more cultural systemic kind of problem?
Deepa Purushothaman:
Yeah, it's a great question.
I'm going to give you a longer answer than you asked for because I've had this conversation with all women. So not just women of color.
There is data that shows more women are actually getting plastic surgery and investing in things related to their face than ever before, because we're staring back at it all day.
So I think for me and the women I speak with, it's less of an issue of what you think I look like, and it's more of an issue of, “I'm looking at myself for the first time after an eight hour stretch and I'm noticing how old I look.”
There's even more imposter syndrome and competence issues as a result of zoom in the last couple of years for women that is absolutely proven.
I've had many conversations about that.
As far as the pressure, I do it some days, and I don't others.
The bigger question is interesting is my hair is curly and I straighten it a lot. I used to straighten it all the time for corporate America.
I'll share...If you look at the cover of the book, there were versions of the woman in front with curly hair and the reversions of the woman in front with straight hair.
And there was such a difference of opinion on what people thought looked professional. And I know this is very related to black women's hair, and a lot of the conversations are happening in the zeitgeists right around what is appropriate around hair, but I faced it myself and the cover of the book and what looks appropriate.
It's not exactly the answer to your question, but it's very tied and it was a big question of what should go on the cover, curly hair, or straight hair.
And I was insistent on the curly hair because we need to change our definitions of what professionalism looks like, but it was interesting. A lot of debate.

Guy Kawasaki:
And where do you come down on this debate.
Not on straight or curly hair, but do you feel women have to be all made up?
Deepa Purushothaman:
I think there's pressure to do that. Absolutely.
And I think it's really on what makes you feel better?
That's where I ended up on this issue. If it makes me feel more confident, if it makes me feel better, if I'm not going to stare at what I look like and wonder why I look so tired, then I do it, but I've let go of needing to do it for other people.
So that's where the power redefinition comes in for me.
Guy Kawasaki:
Okay.
Deepa Purushothaman:
I just want you to know that it means extra time.
And there are days where I just avoid the camera, the on-camera version. And I'll just talk to people on the phone, old school. Cause I just don't feel like changing out of the pajamas.
Guy Kawasaki:
Well, I want you to know that, although I didn't do it yesterday, I put it on foundation before I go online.
Deepa Purushothaman:
Okay.
Guy Kawasaki:
Trade secrets. Especially if I've been surfing and my face is all sunburned.
Deepa Purushothaman:
I love that. Thank you for sharing.
As long as it's a half an hour or less for me to get ready, I'm okay. If it's like longer than that, then I'm not doing it. That's kind of where I've also gotten to.
Guy Kawasaki:
That's Deepa Purushothaman. If you want a seat at the table or maybe to own the table, I highly recommend that you read her book, The First, the Few, the Only.
By the way, what did you think of the Super Bowl halftime show?
I'm Guy Kawasaki. I'm on a mission to make you remarkable.
My thanks to the remarkable team; Peg Fitzpatrick, Jeff Sieh, Shannon Hernandez, Luis Magana, Alexis Nishimura, and the drop in queen, Madisun Nuismer.
Until next time, Mahalo and Aloha.