Jamia Wilson

Guy Kawasaki:
I'm Guy Kawasaki and this is Remarkable People.
This episode's guest is Jamia Wilson. Jamia wears many hats. She is a feminist, activist, writer, and speaker. She is also the director of the Feminist Press at the City University of New York.
But first things first. If by any chance you know Colin Powell, please ask him to listen to this episode. He will get a kick out of it. Ben Carson, however, won't like this episode, so don't tell him.
Jamia is, in short, a leading voice for feminist and women's rights. Her writing has appeared in publications such as the Washington Post and New York Magazine. She has spoken at events such as South by Southwest, TEDx and TED. She was named by Refinery29 as one of the seventeen faces of the future of feminism.
The titles of her books are revealing. Big Ideas for Young Thinkers, Young, Gifted and Black, The ABCs of AOC, Step Into Your power, and Roadmap for Revolutionaries. She's even appeared with Gloria Steinem and Jane Fonda. Maybe Jamia will like this episode so much she'll help me get them as guests.
I'm Guy Kawasaki and this is Remarkable People. And now here is Jamia Wilson, who brought a ray of sunshine into my life with this interview.
Jamia Wilson:
I see myself as a multi-hybrid person, but mostly I'd say I'm an author and an activist-
Guy Kawasaki:
Okay.
Jamia Wilson:
... who likes to make books and now I like to kind of be a midwife of books in all levels. So, I like to birth my own but midwife other people's books and activists' books. Books with a message.
Guy Kawasaki:
What is your writing routine?
Jamia Wilson:
I like to have a steaming cup of lemon tea, so much so that my editor knows this. Sometimes if I-
Guy Kawasaki:
People are writing this down right now. You know that, right? Okay. Okay. Lemon tea. Any particular brand of lemon tea?
Jamia Wilson:
Yes. So, if I really want to be fancy, it's Fortnum's Lemon Tea. Or Fortnum's Fort Mason tea.
Guy Kawasaki:
Okay.
Jamia Wilson:
With some raw honey and a little bit of lemon squeezed in and some fresh ginger. And that's because my mom made it that way and my mom has been a great influence in my life and since she's passed away a way that I can kind of be connected to that love and that support and that memory is the ritual of tea that we had together for so many years. And she was always an encourager of my art and of my writing and of my voice, so I take her with me.
But if you give me anything on the range of Lipton to Fort Mason, I will drink it. But I like a good Fortnum & Mason's tea.
Guy Kawasaki:
Okay. Well, if Amazon sells out of Fortnum tea after this, we'll know what happened.
Okay, so now you're drinking this tea with some honey and are you writing with a fountain pen on parchment or are you pounding it out on a Windows laptop or where are you?
Jamia Wilson:
So, I use a MacBook Air.
Guy Kawasaki:
Okay.
Jamia Wilson:
So, a MacBook Air. I have had Apple since my dad gave me a Apple IIe when I was four years old.
Guy Kawasaki:
Wow.
Jamia Wilson:
So, I've kind of been on Mac. It's a big source of disagreement in my home because my husband's all about PC and was an Android until I convinced him to get an iPhone.
But I like to have, with all the good and bad, I like to be powered by multiple Mac devices at all times.
But I do like pens, so I was always one of those kids who liked stationery. So, I collect washi tape. So, right here on my desk I have in my writing nook a bunch of washi tape with different things on it, lots of different color pencils, markers, all sorts of other ephemeral magic here.
I have paper that's made out of different things. I have a fountain pen with a feather on it. And I even have the melty wax to seal my envelopes because I believe in the art of letter writing and correspondence, which is also a form of writing.
Guy Kawasaki:
You seal your envelopes with melted wax?
Jamia Wilson:
Sometimes if it's a love note.
Guy Kawasaki:
I'm going to give you my address and see if you send-
Jamia Wilson:
Yes. I'll send you one. I'll send you one. Or you could pick between... If you want the washi tape, you can have unicorns.
Guy Kawasaki:
Okay.
Jamia Wilson:
You can have gold. You could have poppies, so I'm serious about that.
Guy Kawasaki:
So, now you're sitting with your tea and you have your MacBook Air. Are you using Word? Are you using what?
Jamia Wilson:
I usually am sort of a Microsoft Office kind of person.
Guy Kawasaki:
Okay.
Jamia Wilson:
I like using Word, but I also use Evernote a lot. So, a lot of how I organize if I'm working on a book project, it'll be a mix between Word, Dropbox and Evernote.
Guy Kawasaki:
And when you're in Word, do you just start off writing your prose or are you using it in the outline view, outlining your entire book before you start? What kind of mind do you have here?
Jamia Wilson:
I would like to say I have an outline view mind, but I would be lying.
I have a multiple windows open mind where I have three different scenarios. And then, I open another window and then create the outline of what should happen.
Guy Kawasaki:
Okay.
Jamia Wilson:
And then also, I will have the little ephemera, the papers, the beautiful papers I like and the color pencils, outlines and different diagrams and visuals of what I want, and I take pictures of those and put them in Evernote.
Guy Kawasaki:
Oh, my.
Jamia Wilson:
To help me figure out the order and somehow my mind makes sense of it.
Guy Kawasaki:
Believe it or not, this podcast is soon going to be sponsored by a company called Remarkable, no pun intended.
No, no, seriously. And they make a remarkable tablet that feels just like writing with a pencil and the pencil doesn't need to be recharged like the Apple one, so I'm going to make it so that you get one of those, okay?
Jamia Wilson:
Oh, my gosh.
Guy Kawasaki:
Because you will love it. You will love it.
Jamia Wilson:
Thank you.
Guy Kawasaki:
I use that to take my notes.
Okay. But, wait. So now, do you think that writing, the real act of writing is editing?
Jamia Wilson:
Whoo. So, I'm still learning because I edit. As a publisher, I edit, and then I also write on my free time. So I'd like to say by day, I'm editing books and helping people publish their books. And by night, I'm writing and on the weekends I'm writing my own work.
But I learn so much about writing as an editor. So, I think that although I love to help other people pursue their craft, I think there's so much I gain by being in other people's work because I have a distance from it that can allow me to see things that later on I'll think in my own writing, "Oh, this sort of risk I saw this person take, what are the risks I could be taking?" Or the way that they have dedicated to learning this particular form and structure, what kind of commitment can I be making?
So, I think that they're both... It's really helpful to refine that talent of both inside you. And I always hear editors say that they're not good writers, but I actually think every editor at their core has to be a good writer to some degree and you have to be a good reader.
Guy Kawasaki:
Yes.
Jamia Wilson:
But you hear a lot of self-deprecating editors say they're not good writers and I don't buy it.
Guy Kawasaki:
Right about now people are firing up their email clients, sending me an email saying, "Why are you wasting her time talking about writing? We want to hear about black feminism, okay?" But I have one more question for you about writing.
Jamia Wilson:
Yeah.
Guy Kawasaki:
So, I have seen your books and I want to know how you find your quotations? Because you have elevated finding quotations to an art. So, what do you do?
Jamia Wilson:
Thank you. So, it's funny you mention that.
I was going through my books... And I have way too many of them... The other day, and I have quotation books. So, I have some of those. But my father, when I was a child, loved the power of oration. And before he went into speech science and got into the science part of his work, he had been an English teacher and had gotten a Masters of English.
So, I grew up getting assignments from my dad after school saying like, "Oh, memorize this poem and recite it back to me and memorize these quotes." And he would always quote people and he'd always quote Shakespeare or quote Maya Angelou and people. And so, I've memorized so many of those so that now whenever I hear something I like, I write it in my journal, and I have a bunch of them piled up over here as you can see, and I keep them.
And so, I have a culmination of those. And then, once Evernote came into my life anytime I see something that I like or I hear something, I'll either voice dictate it, write it down or take a picture, and keep it. And that's often how I find those quotes in my quote collection, so I'm kind of a collector.
And then, too, sometimes I will find them in books, so I'm a highlighter and flagger of books, and so I'll put a little flag in a book to say, "Oh, this page spoke to me. I don't want to forget it. I want to remember the feeling I had when this truth came to me." And that's really how I find a lot of them.
Guy Kawasaki:
Do you ever go to Goodreads and look in the Goodreads quotation by typing in or word like, I don't know, race, and find the 250 quotes with the word race in it? And some of them are Maya Angelou, right?
Jamia Wilson:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Guy Kawasaki:
And some of them are Martin Luther King. Do you ever do that with Goodreads?
Jamia Wilson:
So, with Goodreads, I've done looking for a particular person to see what they've said about something, and it's usually with someone who I have curiosity about and want to know if they spoke about a certain issue.
So, usually I'll write about people I already kind of know a little bit about. But I have found, especially with my Big Ideas for Young Thinkers book, there were people who existed many centuries ago that I have said, "Oh, I wonder if Confucius had a thought about something similar to what's happening now and topically?"
Guy Kawasaki:
Yeah.
Jamia Wilson:
And I'll look. And Goodreads will often have it. Or sometimes if I want to find something contrarian by someone who I think speaks about one thing, but to see, "Oh, do they contradict themselves or do they have an alternate, nuanced point of view about XYZ?" I'll go to Goodreads and find it, because they do have such a comprehensive list.
Guy Kawasaki:
Okay.
Okay, so now we'll shift gears.
God, we've gone into two holes here. I try to keep my interviews really focused but we've gone off track twice already, which is a new record.
So, I'm going to start really now, okay?
Jamia Wilson:
Okay.
Guy Kawasaki:
So my first question is, do you think we're at a tipping point in society?
Jamia Wilson:
Absolutely. I think we're at a tipping point.
I'm really excited about it. I feel that we're at that precipice of change right now where everything that's being laid bare by sort of systems we've relied upon, systems that were set in place that are no longer working are showing that they're either falling apart or that their foundations are flimsy.
And so, we're being forced to reimagine a way forward. And for those who have had vision about a way forward that's better than the way we've been using, or a vision that can bring more of us forward without leaving some behind, that is the vision that is coming.
And I think it's been in the making. It's been in the making for a while and I'm just really excited about the energy that we have sort of a bigger collective awakening that's happening now and the momentum and a series of conditions that are leading more people across difference to stand up and speak up.
So, I'm actually seeing a lot of opportunity in this moment and seeing that we can't live in the conditions we were living in anymore now. You can't unsee what we've seen. So, we've got to do something different and I'm really thrilled that we have this opportunity right now. Even though I do think it's going to take sacrifice and it's going to take hard work from all of us because humans don't tend to do well with change.
Guy Kawasaki:
And what do you think a listener of this podcast can do to make sure that the tipping point tips, that it's not an aberration, and two weeks from now, we're back to life as usual?
Jamia Wilson:
I think we're all now being called to be more brave. We're all now being called to step into walking our real talk.
Who we think we are, who we said we were, this is now the time to show up in that truth. Be it with the way we work, the way we hire, how we spend our money, how we vote, who we support, who we use our platforms to uplift, how we treat other people in our lives.
Right now we are being called to create what we need in the world, to build what needs to be built to connect with who we may not have connected with before but know is important for us to connect with. Connect to people who challenge us, who are going to really make us be better and stretch ourselves to growth.
I'm feeling now that we need to be more brave and I include myself in that.
Guy Kawasaki:
You include yourself in that, but I saw that you, because of a pre-existing medical condition, you cannot protest, right? You cannot go to these things.
Jamia Wilson:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Guy Kawasaki:
That must just be killing you.
Jamia Wilson:
Oh, I cried about it.
Guy Kawasaki:
No pun intended. Yeah, yeah.
Jamia Wilson:
No pun intended, exactly. I cried about it several times that I just really have some risk factors that I can't ignore. And especially knowing the numbers around how African Americans are being impacted by COVID-19 and I live in a part of New York City that has a high rate of COVID infection.
So, I have been advised that it would be a real risk for me. But also, a risk for others.
There are elders in my building, there are newborn children, and so I consider myself as someone who likes to do my best to think about the community and think about the collective. And so, when making that analysis for myself, although I'm usually the first one down for the protest at all times, I really knew now that I'm being called to show up with my other strengths.
And what I'm doing right now is to find the ways to support the people who are marching. Sending money for bailout funds, helping organize childcare and food for people who need it, speaking out and helping to create content that advances social justice and anti-racism, helping to connect people with the resources they need in order to march.
And then, also helping other people who are similarly finding themselves not able to show up in that way to find opportunities where we can give back.
And I'm finding a lot of delight in it too because a lot of people who've mentored me have entrusted me with their belief in me to do and lead in the way that I see best for my generation, my vision, and my community.
And now I'm seeing all these amazing people who are younger than myself leading in the way that they see fits and aligns with what the next generation needs and I want to follow them.
So for me, I'm excited about having that opportunity now, looking back at my role as a follower of the next generation, as much as being someone who can help fuel their work with my funds and my support.
Guy Kawasaki:
Why do you say the next generation? It's not like you're sixty years old. This is your time.
Jamia Wilson:
Yeah, I feel as if I gained a lot of learning when I worked for Rookie Magazine. And Tavi Gevinson, who was our CEO, was fifteen when I started writing for Rookie as one of the older people writing for Rookie at the time in my late twenties. And I learned from her, and I still think she's the best boss I've ever had.
I'm actually working on a project with her right now and she's just so brilliant. And I just learned that even though I was considerably young in the trajectory of a life, that there were things that I had learned that weren't so good.
About second guessing myself, about confidence issues that come with getting conditioned and internalized oppression that come with sexism, that come with racism that I didn't have when I was younger because I hadn't internalized all those things.
And so, I gained more energy and momentum working with all of these young women who helped me find back inside myself that innate fire, that power, that drive to do without considering judgment or critique from others.
And I think that that's why we saw the March For Our Lives and the Climate Justice March, Greta Thunberg and all these other amazing young people who are doing that leadership who are just doing it because they know it's the right thing to do. Their egos are not driving that work. And so, I love it.
Guy Kawasaki:
A little bit of backtracking, because I think many people will not know the answer to this question. I don't know the answer to this question.
So, what does it mean to be young, black, and female in America today?
Jamia Wilson:
It means so many things.
I can speak about what this young, black woman thinks and feels because I think there's so many different ways to experience being a black woman and we are myriad of different experiences.
But I think the shared experience was really summarized well in Thomas Keats' new film called What Does it Mean to be a Problem? that I had the pleasure of speaking in, because he had a lot of people talk about what does it mean to live in a culture where you, your very existence, has been defined as synonymous with a problem and transcending in spite of it, and that's something I think we all share.
Because there's these systemic realities that we all experience, that are baked into the pie of the system, and that's why it needs to change.
I think right now as someone who's thinking about becoming a parent and thinking about the fact that maternal black women's health is so dire in this country, the fact that I'm so afraid of what it would mean to have a baby in this country, in a hospital here, because the statistics show that I'm more likely to experience complications or worse.
And to see that someone like Serena Williams, who had access to the most material resources, still almost died by doing something that is a natural part of many women's lives and many people's lives around the world.
And so, I think that's just an example of what we have to experience that I don't think that people who aren't walking in this skin and in these bodies might necessarily know about. Just knowing that that being a black woman in this country comes with being defined as a problem and no fault of our own.
Guy Kawasaki:
That is arguably one of the most insipid forms of racism, right? I mean, that goes to the core.
There is the kind of Karens racism. And then, there's the turning your back on racism like the NFL did until about twenty minutes ago.
But then there's that, what you just described, where that's so fundamental to your existence.
Jamia Wilson:
But it's part of one of the things I want to say is one of the reasons that I think it's so important to speak about is that I think what upsets me so much about our predicament... And I say this with deep love for being a black woman. I love being a black woman. I'm so glad that in this life that is who I am... Is that every black woman goes through what I've called a tragically inevitable rite of passage. I call them black girls' lessons in a piece that I've written for young women, and I got a lot of feedback about it.
Because we've all kind of had that moment of not being able to just bask in your full girlhood because society defines you as a problem so young that you're not able to just grow up and be a child in the same way as white children do. And that's something that is a part of the reason why I do write children's books, in part to heal the black girl child that I was who didn't get to see herself reflected in enough books or didn't get to see myself and my family reflected positively.
Guy Kawasaki:
What are the experiences that make you feel like you're defined as a problem?
Jamia Wilson:
Oh, my goodness. I mean, just even looking at the statistics about how black girls in schools are sent to detention and suspension more than other girls in schools. But then also are often an afterthought when it comes to support for funding for programs to help support them.
And so, even during the Obama administration, there was a My Brother's Keepers program that was made to support black boys in schools, acknowledging the very real disparities that they were dealing with. But a centering of the conversation was about black boyhood and not the fact that the statistics for black girls were also dire.
And we see this now with what's happening with state sanctioned violence and how we too often don't hear the name of Breonna Taylor on signs at rallies next to the name of George Floyd.
We don't hear too often the names of trans women of color who are killed disproportionately more and trans black women as much as we hear the name Trayvon. And all of those names need to be said. We need to have the same righteous outrage about every loss of life.
But it's important to me to also mention that often the needs of black women and girls are ignored or undermined, and our pain is normalized. And there's a historic reason for that.
If you look back at slavery and you look back at reproductive injustice and the history of this country and we have to move away from normalizing it, truly talking about what it means to nourish, support, protect, and defend the safety of black girls and black women.
Guy Kawasaki:
What's your reaction when people say that associating and liking people of the same race, similar people, is a survival mechanism honed over millions of years of evolution, so it's in our DNA.
So, "It's not that I'm racist, it's just like a survival mechanism. I hang around Japanese Americans because that's what it took to be in the tribe." When someone says that today, what's your reaction?
Jamia Wilson:
It always makes me sad when people say that because I feel as if just knowing one's science about race, and knowing that it's a social construct, and it's this illusion that was very real in terms of policies and the sort of manmade divisions that we have, it makes me sad for people who are missing out on the potential of growing, transforming and building with so many other people they could learn from, so many other cultures that can help expand their experience here on Earth by having that community and by having that knowledge.
It's one thing to say I love my community. I want to be in partnership, in community and culture with people who have had my shared experiences and traditions and to hold an honor those. I respect that. I love that.
I just experienced a Juneteenth and did rituals that my family has celebrated in Juneteenth, and I love that. But to shut others out or to say that there's somehow a benefit of not bridging with others, gives me deep sadness.
And I think that's partly too because I grew up abroad in Saudi Arabia. I went to international schools, students from over fifty countries, and my life was very enriched by that experience. And I believe that my vantage point has been expanded and allows me to do the work that I do because I can find common ground with a lot of people, and I celebrate difference and that was something that I was taught very young and have built my community in that way.
I want that for everyone. I want that for the next generation too. I love that about my life.
Guy Kawasaki:
It seems to me that there is a fundamental difference between "celebrating" difference and the goal that some people aspire to, which is see no difference.
I would argue that see no difference is almost a form of racism in and of itself, just denied deeper.
Jamia Wilson:
I agree with you. I fully agree with you. I think some of the things I really want to dispel in terms of myths... I like to talk with people about myths and mythologies that we've been taught is that to talk about race does not mean you're racist.
To speak about how your race has influenced how people see you, perceive you, treat you or how policies impact your life does not mean that people of color are somehow obsessed with race or are somehow race baiting. And by addressing inequities that have to do with inequality related to race does not mean that you're perpetuating it.
And so, when people say, "I see no color." Or, "I don't see you as black or I don't see you as Japanese," that's actually undermining and silencing the history of who you are, who your ancestors are, and I come from a community that your ancestors are very important, and it also ignores your experience and your culture and your lived reality of experience in our social and cultural institutions.
So for me, I often want to tell that to people when they say, "Well, I don't see your color," somehow thinking that that's complimentary to really think about what that means. That means you don't see me. That means you don't see my fullness as a human being and my full experience.
Guy Kawasaki:
How does one avoid being accused of being tone deaf when dealing with black people?
I cannot possibly understand what it means to be black. I have not walked the talk.
And so, can you give us broad principles about this is... For example, saying that “I don't see color” is offensive, right?
Jamia Wilson:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Guy Kawasaki:
But many people... That would be a surprise to them.
Jamia Wilson:
Yeah. I think a lot of times what I have learned myself is that when I have those moments too and someone's saying, "I see a disconnect here. You're not understanding my experience. I'm offended by what you said," it's really a good time to listen and to go inward and to really think about, "Okay, what are my beliefs and values and assumptions that I have coming into this and what might be different for this other person's experience?"
So, I like to get curious, right? That's a thing that I do when I have gotten into those experiences with people where they're saying that maybe my behavior is harmful or something I said was offensive, to really go in and say, "Oh, where in me might I have some implicit bias or some sort of leanings based on my own experience that might make it hard for me to see what this other person is saying or to understand it?"
Also, just understanding where we are in terms of our power and our proximity to power or privilege, as it's otherwise defined. And I think that's a really important way to understand it and take ownership of that because by itself having it isn't a bad thing.
It's just about knowing how we're owning it and how we're relating to other people as a result. And so, I like to give an example about how I was called out on my privilege once as a way that I had some more compassion for people who I have thought have said things that were tone deaf due to their privilege. And the way in which I decided to deal with it came from me thinking about how I'd wish that white people had dealt with their own when they kind of trespassed against me.
And in my case, a quick story of it is one time there were some women of size who were talking about a fashion show that they were doing, and they were talking about these amazing clothes. And I saw these clothes and I thought they were so beautiful. I wanted to be a part of it and I started tweeting and adding this conversation that was about women doing activism against sizeism and fat phobia. But instead I said, "Oh, I wish these came in my size. I want to be a part of this. This is so awesome. I want to do it."
And a bunch of these women, a lot of people I knew, said, "Back up. Can you go into stores and always find your size? Do you walk down the street and do people call you names because of your size? Do you see yourself and your size reflected into the dominant beauty standard of what society says that it is? Because if that is the case, this is not for you. It doesn't have to be in your size because everything's in your size. You can walk into anywhere and get what you want. This society caters to your size. So, why don't you let us have this moment, this community that we need to heal, that we need to build for us, that empowers our community, without having to appropriate it or take it away?"
And it was such a great example because as soon as it happened, I thought, "Wow."
Guy Kawasaki:
That's fantastic.
Jamia Wilson:
This is something that I've experienced with white women who I've had conflicts with before or white men and other people of color who might have said anti-black things without understanding that they did that.
So, what I did is I said, "You know what? I'm so sorry for the harm that I've done. I clearly need to listen. I clearly did check my privilege and kind of go inward, do my homework around this. What I'm going to do, I'm going to leave these tweets up. I'm not going to delete it, I'm not going to try to clean it up. I'm going to show the mistake I made and show that I still have work to do and I'm going to not also ask you to educate my labor, give me labor to fix it”, right?
“That this is something I have to do. And I made a mistake. I'm going to be vulnerable in saying that I did, but I'm also not going to take my toys and go home because I did. I'm going to just try to do the work and be better."
And so, I try to be accountable and I try to make amends, and I think that's what we can all do when we do it. And then also, I think it helped me develop empathy in many different ways by having that experience. And I'm sad it happened in such a clunky, embarrassing way, but I grew from it. I think it's important.
Guy Kawasaki:
So, I have interviewed about forty people for Remarkable People so far. And I don't know if you saw the previous guest list, but there are truly, truly remarkable people.
Jamia Wilson:
Yes.
Guy Kawasaki:
And I will tell you, Jamia, that is the best story I have heard in all the interviews I have done.
Jamia Wilson:
Oh, thank you.
Guy Kawasaki:
That is truly a remarkable story. So, utterly fantastic.
Jamia Wilson:
Thank you. That means a lot to me. I feel just in awe of the amazing people that you've talked with. I can show you.
I mean, I don't know where the tweets are now. God, it was like several years ago, but it checked me too because it also showed me that, "Oh, you do social justice. You're living this." And no, I live in the same system and society as everyone else, and I am also capable of being just as toxic and always have to interrupt it and check it and do better next time.
Guy Kawasaki:
Yeah. When it's pointed out to companies that you have such a paucity of black people in management positions, and they always come back with something like, "Well, it's the supply. There's not that many coming in the top of the funnel, so how do we get them to be promoted?" something, some kind of rationalization like that.
But if you think about it, if you're a black person in business, what percentage of your mind and your thoughts and your energy is taken up with thinking about you being a black person in this company?
Because I guarantee you, most white people are not in professional positions wondering about what their whiteness means and how they're impacted and all this. And just think of all the overhead that black people have to go through to work, right? White people don't have that overhead. I don't have that overhead as a Japanese American.
So, that sets you back already.
Jamia Wilson:
I mean, it's really tough. I've thought about it a great deal and I've actually talked to managers I've had who... On the one hand, people giving your feedback of where you can grow, and one thing I've gotten is I'm really hyper vigilant.
And that can be a really good thing in a workplace, and it can be a really bad thing, right? That I'm always like, "I've got to check and check and check." Detail oriented, but hypervigilant. Not always a good thing.
And I finally had some vulnerability now that I have managers who will get it to say, "Well, it makes sense that if I've always kind of been getting the narrative, since childhood, you've got to work twice as hard to get half as much and be twice as good”, that lends to that sort of always feeling like you've got to double check.
You've got to be hypervigilant about every single thing and it can be really difficult.
But I don't want to say that everyone has that experience, but it's one that I definitely have. And I've talked to a lot of people who are black or people who've had immigrant parents or people who are the first one of their community from a certain class to go into this kind of profession and it can be really tough and alienating because of that.
Because in addition to doing the job at hand, right? Feeling that you're constantly having to prove your worth, constantly having to prove why you deserve to be there, or to unprove biases people have about thinking that you somehow got there through a handout or a quota or whatever they're calling it these days, right?
When I was in college, they were calling it... Saying it that way. It's really tricky.
I'll never forget in college having someone challenge me and saying, "Oh, yeah. You clearly got here on affirmative action," and me just saying, "Oh, well, if you want to show me your SAT results, I'd be happy to show you mine," and him not being willing to do that, right? But I called the bluff and I just wanted to say like, "Come on, if you're going to call me to the mat like this or just make these kinds of assumptions, then I want to see you really bring it down to the mat." And the moments where that's happened, rarely have people ever taken me up on that opportunity, right?
Guy Kawasaki:
Yeah, yeah.
Jamia Wilson:
And so, I'm glad you named it because it's something I've been thinking about a lot.
And Roxane Gay said something to me once when I interviewed her that really stuck with me, which was that she has been a first in many things. And I was the first black woman to be the director and publisher of The Feminist Press in forty-seven years, and my parents were both first in their fields around their PhDs at respective institutions. And I said to her, "What does it mean to be a first? There's so much pressure. There's good parts about it, but there's a lot of burden and what does that mean?" And she said, "Well, it's our duty as the first not to be the last and to create conditions so that there won't need to be a first again, right?”
And I've really thought about how that's impacted so much of how I try to show up in my work at Feminist Press with my team and really trying to create an organization that would make it so that any of the people that are working there now could rise up into the director position, regardless of their immigration status, their race, their sexual orientation, their gender, et cetera.
But I think having my own subjectivity has really led to that being a really deep value.
Guy Kawasaki:
That is another great story.
Can I ask you? Just an aside. I may have just learned something.
So, I consider myself a little obsessive compulsive. So, is hypervigilant the new term for obsessive compulsive?
Jamia Wilson:
Yeah. I mean-
Guy Kawasaki:
Can I just call myself hypervigilant as opposed to obsessive compulsive and be more like millennial relevant?
Jamia Wilson:
I got hypervigilant kind of from my therapist, right?
I mean, that's part of it if I'm going to get really real. And she would also say obsessive compulsive about me too. And my mom had it too. My mom was open about her OCD, like literally.
So for example, let's just say with pandemic, everyone was freaking out about not having supplies.
Guy Kawasaki:
Yeah.
Jamia Wilson:
I had my supplies. My hypervigilance. But I always have a stockpile. But anyhow, that's another podcast.
Guy Kawasaki:
Yep.
Jamia Wilson:
It's an increased state of alertness, right?
Guy Kawasaki:
Okay.
Jamia Wilson:
And so, it comes out of language. A lot of times from trauma, right?
Guy Kawasaki:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Jamia Wilson:
So, if you were burned as a child because you put your hand on the stove, you might have a hypervigilance, an increased state of alertness about danger.
When you think it's coming, when you think the conditions might be creating it, right? So, I think it's a cousin to obsessive compulsiveness a lot, and it's about wanting to sniff out the hidden danger.
Guy Kawasaki:
You may have an infinite supply of toilet paper, but I tell you something, I wash my hands so often, I swear, that touch ID doesn't work on my phone and computer anymore. Like my fingerprint has changed or I don't have a fingerprint anymore.
Moving on. Do you think that Facebook, for all its talk, is actually undermining Black Lives Matter?
Jamia Wilson:
I think I have long had a concern about, and it's like a documented concern, just about how platforms in general need to be better about managing online abuse and harassment, but also walking the talk around not overly surveilling activist movements and contributing to that. And so, what I want to see is just more of the people who are impacted having a seat at the table.
And I know work is being done on Facebook and at other platforms around that, and they've connected with me and others around that as well, so I know that there are people doing that work. But I want to see it at the very top. I want to see it at the very top as well in terms of that commitment and really ensuring how do we get the people who are most affected by our policies around the platform, most affected by the impact of any partnerships we have with law enforcement, et cetera, that is the kind of conversation I want to see.
And then, surveillance and privacy. What does that mean? Who does that compromise? And whose safety is compromised as a result as well?
Guy Kawasaki:
What about the stories that they let be spread on Facebook or the advertising that they let be run?
Jamia Wilson:
So my argument, and there's people who disagree with this all the time, but I'll just say this: we know that private companies are private companies, so they can decide the content is not appropriate to be featured on their platforms and they can make those decisions.
And often you'll hear people who are opponents of counter speech saying, "Well, it's free speech. There's nothing they can do, there's nothing they can do." But actually, yes they can. They're a private company. By law, they can make the decision to say, "We're actively not going to allow hate speech. We're not going to allow content that is related to sexual cyber exploitation, otherwise known as revenge porn," things like that, right?
They can actually make that decision as private companies.
So, I like to also just dispel that myth all the time to say that really there are human beings who can actually make the decision legally, totally, to take down whatever they want and it's a choice that they make, and I think it's an ethical and moral choice.
Guy Kawasaki:
Oh, the irony of anyone in the Trump administration playing the victim of the lack of free speech. Because free speech is when the government shuts you down, not when Facebook decides to pull your story.
Somebody missed the constitutional law class that day when they claim Facebook is restricting speech. But that's another hole we shouldn't go down.
I work with someone, and I have two questions in here, that she said you should not ask her. Okay? So, now I don't know-
Jamia Wilson:
And now I'm quite curious what the questions are.
Guy Kawasaki:
Okay. We can edit these out. So we can do anything. Okay?
Jamia Wilson:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Guy Kawasaki:
But anyway, with all that, your curiosity's peaked.
So question number one I was told not to ask you: what do you think of Ben Carson?
Jamia Wilson:
Okay. So, what I think of Ben Carson is something I think I'm still kind of trying to figure out. Because when I was a child, I was told that Ben Carson was a hero who I should look up to.
And I remember, I think I got a book. I got a book about Ben Carson's life from my parents and that book was supposed to kind of show me, "Oh, this is what's possible in your life. This is how one can achieve a lot in the midst of adversity."
And so for me, I have a lot of confusion, sadness, and just... Yeah. Confusion and sadness about where he is now, what he's come to represent, and then who is also kind of leveraging him.
I often wonder if that comes from the fact that I was raised to look up to him because of his medical work. But I think now, I don't consider him one of my role models, but when I was a child I would have.
Guy Kawasaki:
Okay. So, should I keep that question in the podcast?
Jamia Wilson:
Yeah, if you want. Yeah. I think for me, I have a sadness about it because he was one of those people that I grew up hearing about and being told like, "Be like Ben Carson."
Guy Kawasaki:
Okay.
Jamia Wilson:
And in the 2016 campaign, I just had this moment of... It's kind of when you look up to your favorite teacher and then they have a scandal or something like that. And then it's like, "Oh, don't meet your idols."
That's kind of how I feel.
Guy Kawasaki:
Okay. The second question I was told not to ask you is: what do you think of Joe Biden essentially saying, "You ain't black if you support Trump"?
Jamia Wilson:
I felt that the comment was really tone deaf.
This is my thing: if you're going to say that you have such proximity to the black community and understanding that then he should know actually that that was an inappropriate statement or joke for him to be making.
I think what is most concerning about that comment is that there's a sense of entitlement to it, that somehow black folks owe their vote to him or that somehow he's the person who is best poised to represent the black community and I think that I found it deeply troubling.
I think the context is also really important because of the show that he was on. It was a show that has a wide-ranging audience and there's a lot of black people who listen to that show.
But when I heard it, I just was kind of like, "This was not okay. It must not have been vetted by whomever the black people are in your team." And my quick knee jerk that day was like, "I just feel upset for the black folks who are doing extra labor in there today, having to deal with this comment that he made. He needs more education and I hope he never says anything like this ever again.”
And so I felt like for me, it just did the opposite job of what it was supposed to do. But I also think that him making a comment like that wouldn't be the first or the last time that we've heard politicians make comments like that.
And if anything, I think that what I would have preferred to hear from him was to talk about what he plans to do to address the real systemic problems that the black community and all of our communities need fixed, and what he's going to do to uplift a woman of color in the office of Vice President.
Guy Kawasaki:
Okay.
Jamia Wilson:
Because I was one of the 200 women who signed the letter urging him to make that decision.
Guy Kawasaki:
If you were in front of an audience of young, black people, what would you say, "Okay, this is the mindset that I think you should have today to succeed and to make this country better."
What's the mindset you would recommend?
Jamia Wilson:
So, really interesting. I'm constantly asking myself that question in the writing I do for young people.
I think that the mindset is the title of my second book which is for young people, which is Step Into Your Power. That's the mindset that I was raised with. And I dedicated this book to my mom because she taught me to step in my power.
In every situation, you have an innate power that cannot be taken away from you. And you have strengths and you have power, even if outside institutions or culture or community to tell you that you don't. That you are worthy, and you have power.
And that's literally the key message of all my books.
If I distill it to say: you have power. In Young, Gifted and Black, it was all about what did these people tap into in their lives to do things that helped change the world. And in Step Into Your Power, it's all about that, that you have the power.
You always, in the adversity you're facing, have an opportunity to make decisions, make discernment and make choices. And it's not to be confused with this idea of individualism, right? That you pull yourself up by your bootstraps because I very much believe in systems and how they impact us.
But to say that we have a power to embrace how we respond to anything that faces us. And so, that's what excites me about this moment, because young people now and many generations of people are saying we have the power to organize right now.
We have the power to demand what we want. We have the power to speak out and say...
Just thinking about all the CEOs in the past couple of weeks who have had to atone for ill treatment of black staff and staff of color in multiple sectors. People are stepping into their power. People are stepping in their power to name issues that they want to address and to name the changes and to say, "I deserve to be part of the solution."
So, that's the thing. And I think stepping into our power is also about being brave and just being courageous enough to trust in yourself without needing that external affirmation and validation.
Because I think that ultimately that power is something that we possess. No one can give it to you. And there's a level of power that can't be taken away. And that, to me, comes from my spiritual beliefs, but also just my deep beliefs in what makes us human.
Guy Kawasaki:
Can a white person or an Asian person or a non-black person say to black people, "Step into your power"? Because couldn't the black people say, "You have no fricking idea what I'm dealing with. How dare you say the solution is step into your power?"
So, I can see how you can say that.
Jamia Wilson:
Yes.
Guy Kawasaki:
But what does a white person say when asked “What are your thoughts?” Should they just say, "I have no thoughts. I can't comment"? What's the answer? What does a white person say when...?
Jamia Wilson:
So, that book... Part of why I wrote it is it's been translated into a bunch of different languages now, and I'm hearing from kids from all over about stepping into their power.
So, what I want folks who are not black to do is step into their power. Their power to uplift, to support, to listen, to use their privilege and platform to help support others. And what I would want them to say is, "How can I support you? How can I be in solidarity with you?" With those who don't have the access, don't have the privilege, and don't have the support that they do enjoy.
And so, for me, the question is about how do we each step into our power, right?
Because I also think of this; so, one of the things during COVID-19 that has been important to me here is stepping into my power to help Asian members of my community and friends who were dealing with real racist violence here in New York City in the beginnings of COVID-19.
And there were people that I knew who experienced physical and verbal abuse simply for being Asian and simply for wearing masks in New York City. And so, that was a time for me to step into my power, to listen, to go to some webinars about how we can do cross coalition work and support each other's communities, and be in deep solidarity.
And so when I say this, this is about how each of us can step into powerful coalition together in our power. And I have to say, one of the things that made me so excited just a couple weeks ago when I was out for a bit was seeing Koreans for Black Lives. That was amazing to me to see that and to know they were stepping into their power and we are stepping into our power together.
Guy Kawasaki:
And you don't look back and say, "Wow, during the Rodney King riots, all the Koreans who own the liquor stores...” It was black against Koreans back then?
Jamia Wilson:
What I think about that is when we go back into the history, and I like to look at the history, right?
I try to understand too about how the very same nefarious racism that would promote anti-Asian sentiments, that would promote the kind of racism that Asians would experience, and therefore, maybe feel would bring them closer to being accepted, that's what I want to interrogate.
I remember asking that question, so I'm glad you asked it. I remember asking that question during the experience of Rodney King... Like, my experience of Rodney King and maybe I was nine or ten years old. I was pretty young at that time. And I remember asking my dad, "Why are they talking about Korean and black relationships in LA?" And my dad kind of explaining to me, he's like, "Well, a lot of times what happens when people come to this country is that white supremacy."
And I remember being taught this like as a child when he said this. “White supremacy will make people feel that you don't want to be treated as black people are. And a way to kind of distance yourself from that when you're already being treated badly by white supremacy is to be seen on the other side of it.”
And so, not that I would excuse anything that would be anti-black or anti-Asian violence. I would just say that I remember that conversation and I'm excited that I was trusted with that level of information at a young age because it helped me think with nuance about it.
And I think the same thing here in New York, there were some Orthodox Jews who were marching for Black Lives Matter. And there's a long history in New York and Crown Heights around conflicts between Orthodox Jewish populations and black people as well.
But I think sometimes too we have to remember that these communities are not monoliths. And so, we can acknowledge fraught histories that we have with each other, but I also think in each of these cases these are communities who have experienced deep persecution as a result of white supremacy, right?
So for me, I'm like, "How are we going to build together, acknowledge past hurts, and talk about our common goal of dismantling what ails us all?"
Guy Kawasaki:
How old are you?
Jamia Wilson:
I'm thirty-nine, so I'm pretty old now.
Guy Kawasaki:
Yeah, but I'm telling you, if you have acquired this much wisdom by thirty-nine, it's going to be scary when you're sixty. Oh, my God.
Jamia Wilson:
Thank you for saying that. My mom said I was born thirty-five.
She was like, "You've been scaring the hell out of us for a long time." And it's funny because I never quite knew what they meant until I met... There's this amazing candidate for Congress here, Lindsey Boylan, and Lindsey Boylan has a daughter named Vivi.
And Vivi came to my event... We'd had an event about the Equal Rights Amendment and her mom spoke at this event and Lindsey's amazing. And Vivi got on the mic... And I think she was maybe six years old. She got on the mic and was like, "Okay, well, you're talking about this Equal Rights Amendment and you're trying to get it ratified and that's great and you've just gotten Virginia, but what are you going to do if Donald Trump is still in power? How are you going to make this happen?"
And I'm having this fierce six-year-old, like awesome, young Asian American girl calling me to the mat. And I remember just thinking like, "Oh, okay. I know what they meant about born thirty-five." Vivi is already on it.
I posted her on Instagram the other day. I'm like, "This is the president in training. And Vivi, you have got it going on." And she just said to me later, she's like, "This man is a problem. What are you going to do to fix it?" She's asking me this at six.
Guy Kawasaki:
And what did you say?
Jamia Wilson:
I just said, "You're right. We need your help. Help guide us. Obviously adults have a lot to learn in getting there and give us your solutions," and she had solutions. We talked throughout the whole night.
I actually owe her some books because her mom's like, "Vivi wants you to send some books," because I offered them to her.
But I feel really confident in that, right? But I think I did benefit from a generation of having feminist parents, and my parents were involved in the Civil Rights Movement. So, I also feel that anything I've been able to accomplish came from those opportunities I got from other people's labor and sacrifice and support.
And I'm hoping that what I can do right now is help make it so Vivi is president, but then also, to help be a resource to conjure that for young people. Because I was just able to be in an environment where my curiosity was piqued and I was encouraged to ask questions and I've had a lot of practice doing so, and I want that for kids.
I want them to get questions like the ones are answering. I want kids to get questions and not have any question be one that they would be afraid to tackle, right?
That they would be critical thinkers and be at the ready like Vivi.
Guy Kawasaki:
Okay. I have two more questions for you, okay?
Jamia Wilson:
Yeah.
Guy Kawasaki:
So first one is: how exactly does one get to interview Gloria Steinem and Angela Davis? How did you pull that off?
Jamia Wilson:
Well, I haven't gotten to interview Angela Davis yet.
I've interviewed Gloria several times. Angela has written for FP, but I haven't interviewed her yet. But I love that you're speaking this into reality because it's a dream.
I would love to interview Angela Davis.
Guy Kawasaki:
I'll send her an email, not that she knows who the hell I am.
Jamia Wilson:
I love that. Oh, my gosh.
Interviewing Angela Davis would be like life goals unlocked, because she has-
Guy Kawasaki:
For me too.
Jamia Wilson:
Right? She's so brilliant. She's so brilliant.
Also, I'm a Francophile and practicing French the other day, listened to her speaking French an entire interview and I'm just impressed at her accent and her entire skills.
But yeah, Gloria... So, I used to work at the Women's Media Center, which was founded by Gloria Steinem and Robin Morgan and Jane Fonda. And I had a really wonderful opportunity there to get to work with them on a great many things and to help amplify women's voices in the media.
And Gloria has been a great mentor and friend in my life. She inspires me. And many years before I worked at Women's Media Center, I worked at Planned Parenthood and Gloria came in to help organize us for what was then the largest march on Washington, The March for Women's Lives, and the words that she said that day really inspired me.
And so, she's just someone who I have learned so much from about being a good human, and also about how to organize and how to build community with folks with love and humility and justice. She's just such a great person and I feel lucky to just have been able to have her in my life.
Guy Kawasaki:
Oh, that's fantastic. So my last question is just so I know for the future: did I ask anything tone deaf today?
Jamia Wilson:
No. Not even the one about Ben Carson. It's so funny.
I haven't thought about that in a long time, but he's one of those folks that I was so confused. I add Kanye West to that. He used to be my hero, and then I'm like, "What happened? What went off the rails? What went wrong?"
Guy Kawasaki:
How about Condi Rice? Is she one of your heroes?
Jamia Wilson:
Condi Rice is a really... She's an interesting one for me because there was a time in which my much younger self had a lot of critique about Condi Rice.
And I remember actually one of the questions I asked Gloria when she came to speak at that March was, "How do we reconcile when there are women in power who we believe are supporting people whose policies go against what we feel is right for our community and what's in the highest good for us?"
And I said that I was really conflicted about Condi Rice because on the one hand I admired her as a black woman who had gone on to achieve so many great things, and also knew of her history being connected to the church where the four little girls were killed in Alabama and having a great many talents that Condi has. And I just thought, "What if she could use her powers for good?" based on my vision of the world and what is good, right? During an administration that I really had opposition to.
And then, I began to get curious about her and to actually go and find out, even though I disagreed with the positions of the administration she was in and still do, to find out what her personal beliefs were on a couple of issues that I was concerned about to later find out that she was much more moderate than the president she was serving under during that time.
And so, although based on my own calculus I still wouldn't serve under that president, it helped me have a more nuanced approach to how I felt about what her leadership meant to me as a black woman and a young woman at that time looking up to her.
And so, I saw that she recently wrote an op-ed as well about race, right? And so, I'm still kind of asking myself that question, that is it okay for me to admire a great many things about her and also think she's misguided on things?
And I think that answer is true.
Guy Kawasaki:
Well, but how about the contrast between Colin Powell's op-ed and Condi Rice's op-ed? Because let's just say Colin kind of really went for it, right?
Jamia Wilson:
Oh, yeah. So, I will say that I'm a big Colin Powell fan. I love Colin Powell.
And if you want to quick funny story... So, I know I kept you a long time, but I have a funny story about meeting Colin Powell that I think you will enjoy.
Guy Kawasaki:
Okay.
Jamia Wilson:
So growing up, my parents were obsessed with Colin Powell. And I always found that this was really strange because my parents were Democrats, been involved in the Civil Rights Movement, and I thought, "Wow, but you love Colin Powell."
So much so that all my friends, my boyfriend at the time, now my husband, like everyone since I was a kid and a teen, who comes to visit, who's a loved one, got a laminated copy of Colin Powell's Rules for Leadership from my parents.
I have one up right now. Oh, here. Let me see if one with me. I think it's in the kitchen right now, but I could show it to you.
Guy Kawasaki:
First, somebody shows up for first date and your father hands them this?
Jamia Wilson:
It wasn't the first date, but I was like the first Thanksgiving.
Guy Kawasaki:
Okay, okay.
Jamia Wilson:
It'd be like, "Oh, here's something I thought you would enjoy, son. Follow these rules," right?
Guy Kawasaki:
Yeah.
Jamia Wilson:
So, yeah. Strange but totally my parents. So, my parents loved it so much that they had this laminated, and then in really beautiful frames in a couple of places in the house, these Colin Powell leadership rules, okay?
So, that was just the house that I lived in. It can tell you a lot. And so, I always was just kind of like, "What is it about this guy?" Disagreed greatly with the administration, but then also saw that Colin Powell was a big supporter of Barack Obama and kind of began moving in a more progressive direction over time.
And so, his outspokenness against Donald Trump was also something that very much excited and titillated me, having grown up being taught, "Be like Colin."
So then, I go to this party that was a celebration of Meghan Markle and Prince Harry's wedding at the British Embassy. And I went with some friends and we were there. It was a very interesting sort of culmination of people because you saw some people like me there, my friend Charlotte Clymer, who is this awesome trans activist and speaker and writer.
And then, I see Sarah Sanders across the room. And then, I see Sean Spicer over there.
Guy Kawasaki:
No.
Jamia Wilson:
There was a very awkward sort of selfie booth line and we're all trying to do it.
But then, as I'm sitting there with a lot of my feminist friends at this event, I see across the room Colin Powell. We were thinking... And one of those also a younger black woman who grew up with a family that loved him. Also Democrat, but Colin Powell is beloved.
We go over and we're like, "Colin Powell! Oh, my goodness! Ah!" And so he says, in the best sort of dad voice which I loved. He reminded me so much of my dad. He was like, "Girl, look what you started. Look what you're going to start. Right here, look what you started. But I'll take the selfie. But this better not end up on Instagram." And I'm like, "But you know that it's going to end up on Instagram." And we had the best laugh and he took the picture and he's like, "Okay, now..."
And so I said, "But I just have to tell you one thing," because he's like, "Look, I got to go, because now look what you started. All these people were coming over here trying to get selfies, girl."
And I just said, "Look, I grew up and my parents used to give us all the Colin Powell's Rules and they handed them out to everyone.” And he's like, "Are you following them?" And I said, "I try." And he said, "Good. Follow them."
So that was the story, but it was amazing. And I'm sorry Colin Powell, if you're hearing this, I did put it on Instagram. Even though I know you don't approve.
Guy Kawasaki:
Did he tell you “call me maybe”?
Jamia Wilson:
I wish, I wish.
He was so quick like trying to get out of there. He was true to his word. After that, as soon as our little bevy of young people came over and dogpiled him, all these other people saw him and tried to get pictures and I saw him kind of take more pictures and leave, so we blew his cover.
But it was amazing, and I was even more obsessed after that day.
Guy Kawasaki:
If it's true... Okay? That's a big caveat.
If it's true, I want you to say that I did not ask you anything tone deaf in this interview, because I'm sure I'm going to get some emails saying, "Guy, how could you be so tone deaf and ask her a question like that?" So, if it's true...
Jamia Wilson:
No. There was nothing you asked me today that I feel uncomfortable with, right?
Guy Kawasaki:
No.
Jamia Wilson:
But I do think that there could be people who might be uncomfortable with the Ben Carson question, but for me, I did not feel uncomfortable.
Guy Kawasaki:
Okay.
Jamia Wilson:
What's interesting is I think right now, there's a lot of things that are charged, right?
And I think that that's the conversation too to have, that I think it is hard to know in certain cases what is and what is not if you're not a part of a specific experience. And I'm saying that because I was reading several statements that people had over the past week and statements with a lot of great intentions that people had over the past couple of weeks, but there were things that were said in the statements that I had to say," Actually, read like this. This is how it comes off." Or I've sensitivity read for a couple of people's books recently and had to say, "Actually, did you know that this has this or that connotation?"
So, I think what's good is when people say things like that too, I think we can learn a lot from them. Because even in my own language, there are a lot of things that I have learned with people just kind of naming it.
And so, that's why I also like to say that for me, I'd like to have conversations about how when we do kind of have these things that kind of bristle us to say, "Oh, when you said that, this is how it made me feel," that we could have a forum for how to have those conversations with each other because I think that we could all learn in many different ways and that's kind of why I shared the story.
One of the things too... I saw a beautiful piece today by Rebecca Cokley, I believe is who wrote it, and it was about why when people say that Donald Trump is unwell, they're doing a disservice to the disability community.
And I thought it was a really important piece because a lot of people are saying that, right? But they're actually not realizing what they're saying to people who are disabled and furthering stigma around disability, et cetera, without really knowing anything about Donald Trump's health history, but kind of using that health terminology to talk about his misdeeds could be harmful.
And so, I think it's just good to have those conversations about how do we be in conversation with each other about how to understand and communicate with each other more and empathy. Because I'm grateful to the people who've also been able to help me do better when I've needed to do better.
Guy Kawasaki:
Well, I think you certainly have improved my game. And I think you have added a lot of remarkable wisdom to the body of knowledge about how to get the American people to come together again. So, I thank you for this.
Jamia Wilson:
Thank you.
Guy Kawasaki:
And I look forward to the day when AOC and Jamia Wilson are running for president and vice president. I will send you whatever the limit of donation is.
Jamia Wilson:
Thank you. Oh, my gosh. Hey, from your mouth to God's ears. I would love that.
Guy Kawasaki:
Amen.
Jamia Wilson:
You know I love AOC so much, I wrote a children's book about her.
Guy Kawasaki:
I know. That's right.
Jamia Wilson:
I love her.
Guy Kawasaki:
But you can be president and she can be VP. Or vice versa.
It makes no difference to me, but yeah, I'm there for you. Okay?
Jamia Wilson:
Oh, my goodness. Thank you so much.
Guy Kawasaki:
Take care. Thank you.
Jamia Wilson:
I would love to have her on my podcast too.
Guy Kawasaki:
Well, it's not like I have her on my Rolodex, so if you introduce me, she would be on this in a second. I consider her truly remarkable.
Jamia Wilson:
I'm considering how to get in touch with her. I haven't met her yet. I haven't met her either. But I would love to. If I find out, I will surely connect you.
Guy Kawasaki:
Well, between the two of us, surely we should be able to get to her.
Jamia Wilson:
Right?
Guy Kawasaki:
I know what you can do here. You contact Colin Powell and ask him to contact her for us. I guarantee you that would work.
Jamia Wilson:
I would love that. Maybe I should. Because unless he's still mad at me about Instagram.
Guy Kawasaki:
Well, delete that before you make the request.
Jamia Wilson:
Exactly. I mean, it was so funny because he said... He just looked at me like this, he was like, "Girl, this better not end up on Instagram." I'm like, "It is. It is."
Guy Kawasaki:
Why else take the picture, right?
Jamia Wilson:
Exactly. The picture turned out really cute too. We all were just all over him. He's such a great man. I love him.
Guy Kawasaki:
Well, Colin Powell, if you're listening, now you know. All right, thank you very much.
Jamia Wilson:
Thank you so much.
Guy Kawasaki:
And take care.
Jamia Wilson:
You too.
Guy Kawasaki:
Seriously, if I can ever help you, you know how to get in touch with me. Okay?
Jamia Wilson:
Thank you so much. I hope to meet in person when the COVID chaos is over someday.
Guy Kawasaki:
Absolutely. And if you ever want to try surfing, come to California.
Jamia Wilson:
Hey, I'm going to hold you to that because it's on my list. I tried to go to Black Girls Surf camp one year and then I had to have surgery and couldn't go. So, you're going to have to teach me.
Guy Kawasaki:
We will take care of that.
Jamia Wilson:
I love it.
Guy Kawasaki:
No problem, no problem. And my daughter's about your height, so we have wetsuits for you. So, we're good.
Jamia Wilson:
That's perfect. I love it.
Guy Kawasaki:
All right, take care. Thank you.
Jamia Wilson:
Thanks so much. Take care.
Guy Kawasaki:
Bye-bye.
Jamia Wilson:
Bye.
Guy Kawasaki:
Don't forget to tell Colin Powell to listen to this episode. I hope that you agree that people like Jamia are what it's going to take to make America decent again.
She is destined to do remarkable things in her career.
I'm Guy Kawasaki and this is Remarkable People.
Mahalo to Elisa Camahort Page who made this interview possible. My thanks to Jeff Sieh and Peg Fitzpatrick, who bring rays of sunshine into my life too.
And please go to the Apple podcast app and write a review so that I can read it into a future episode.
Meanwhile, wash your hands, wear a mask, maintain social distance, listen to scientists and doctors, and very few politicians.
This is Remarkable People.