Shea and Syd McGee of Studio McGee

Guy Kawasaki:
I'm Guy Kawasaki, and this is Remarkable People. This episode's guests – plural - are Syd and Shea McGee. They are the power couple behind Studio McGee. This is the first wife/husband interview.
While they are individually remarkable, together, they are unstoppable. Their business includes a home design firm, as well as a line of carefully curated products. They've also designed a line of merchandise sold at Target, co-authored a new book called Make Life Beautiful, and if that's not enough, they're starring in a new Netflix series called “Dream Home Makeover,” and all this started by growing their Instagram account.
In this episode, you'll learn about rocking Instagram, working together as a married couple, the grit and determination that's necessary to make a business successful and how I should redo the background in my home studio. There's even a marriage tip for Instagram couples. Spoiler alert: the tip is to hire a professional photographer.
This episode of Remarkable People is brought to you by reMarkable the paper tablet company. Yes, you got that right, Remarkable is sponsored by reMarkable. I have version two in my hot little hands and it's so good, a very impressive upgrade.
Here's how I use it - One: taking notes while I'm interviewing a podcast guest. Two: taking notes while being briefed about a speaking gig. Three: drafting the structure of keynote speeches. Four: storing manuals for all the gizmos that I buy. Five: roughing out drawings or things like surf boards, surf board shapes. Six: wrapping my head around complex ideas with diagrams and flow charts.
This is a remarkably well thought-out product. It doesn't try to be all things to all people, but it takes notes better than anything I've used. Check out the recent reviews of the latest version.

I'm Guy Kawasaki, and this is Remarkable People, and now, here's the dynamic duo of design, Syd and Shea McGee.
Shea McGee:
Studio McGee is a design firm and an e-commerce brand. Our design firm, really, designs custom homes all over the country. That was where we began and established a name for ourselves, but McGee and Co. is the product side of the business and that is focused on furniture, decor, lighting, rugs, and that's all online. Most recently, we started working with Target to do a more affordable line in all of their stores and online.
Guy Kawasaki:
Since you're still doing designs for clients, how do you make that work because there must be just hundreds of people who would like the McGee's to design their house.
Shea McGee:
Oh, we're grateful that we've gotten to the point where we can be selective about our clients. Syd, early on, he said ‘yes’ to everything and I'm like, "You're saying ‘yes’ to everything and then I'm designing them." Now, we've been able to grow to a place where we - yes, we're thinking about budget and we're thinking about the style of the home, but we're also making sure that this long-term relationship that we're building with clients is going to be a good one, that it's a personality fit as well. So we are very selective.
We take on a certain amount of projects at a time, and that allows me to still be involved in the design because I just can't let it go.
Guy Kawasaki:
Syd, is that your version of the story too?
Syd McGee:
Yeah, I mean, Shea's super talented. I think that as we partnered and I looked at the business aspects, at first, it was like, "We're going to die if we don't have enough projects, so let's take everything we can get and then we'll kind of sort it out later." What we started to realize was Shea loved being involved in every single project to make sure that the standards and the quality of design were carried through everything.
We realized that there was a capacity to that, a throughput capacity and so we had to say, "Okay, well, what are going to be some of the factors that we start to qualify these projects with?" What I realized was based on budget and the type of project and the style, but also the people that we're working with.
If we're going to invest so much time, we really want to make sure that it's a happy relationship. We could have someone that had so much money, but if we didn't feel like it was going to be a good relationship, we would pass on the project. I think that that's where we've finally gotten today and it really makes our work an enjoyable thing to do.
Guy Kawasaki:
Well as the Japanese say, "mazel tov," that you're at that point where you can turn down rich people, basically.
So Shea, are you blessed and slash cursed with this superpower that, like a Marvel character, you have x-ray vision? So you walk into a house, you walk into a restaurant, a store, and your mind is constantly thinking, "Oh, this is what they should do. We should move this here. Change the color of this wall." All that, or can you just turn it off, or are you relentlessly trying to make the world more beautiful?
Shea McGee:
It's hard; It's really hard for me to turn it off. I am always thinking about my surroundings and especially when they're beautiful surroundings, I can't stop soaking in every detail. I want to enjoy all of the thought and intention that went into a space.
If someone hasn't thought about their home very much, I can kind of turn it off until they start asking me questions, and then you're not going to get me to stop talking about it.
Guy Kawasaki:
Syd, you're laughing. So, I think-
Shea McGee:
Syd, yeah. Syd, knows that, yeah.
Syd McGee:
Believe it or not, design comes up a lot, even when we're just hanging out or go on vacation. It's a very design centered world with Shea, but it's fun and it's really enjoyable. They don't want Syd and Shea to design their house, they want Shea to design their house.
I would not be good at designing. I can sometimes pick... She's so nice when she's designing our home, she'll say, "Of these three options, which ones do you like?" And I'll pick one. If she goes with it, I feel like I've just designed our house, like I did it, but I know that it's been curated and presented to me in a way where I can't really go wrong.
It's interesting because Shea is really talented and I can just see that kind of come through. It is her passion, she loves every aspect about it, loves to absorb it, loves to experience it and loves to do it for people and present it to their home and just make up a place to live. So, I think, she's always constantly trying to get better and learn.
Guy Kawasaki:
Syd, it sounds like you're a trophy husband.
Syd McGee:
It's true.
Shea McGee:
No way!
Syd McGee:
My dream come true. I go to the beach, I can surf, I can be bronzed.
Shea McGee:
That's one of the biggest misconceptions about our business, I think because I'm the face and I do the pretty stuff, people think that Syd's just kind of behind the scenes. "Oh, does he kind of just like work with the numbers or something?" There's so much more to it than that and there's so much going on behind the scenes that he's running so that I can just focus on the design of pillows and furniture. He's good at playing the role of Instagram husband sometimes, for sure.
Syd McGee:
That's true.
Guy Kawasaki:
Do you think that this superpower... Were you born with this superpower or did it become a skill that you had to acquire over time?
Shea McGee:
I've always loved style and design, but design is a lot more technical than it seems from the way we see it online or in television shows where it's just like fluffing pillows and then you snap your fingers and like a whole kitchen magically appears. There's a lot more that goes into it.
Because I just took a few courses at night to get my feet wet in the design world, I had to learn with each project about how to really pay attention to the details. You have to learn so much about the construction of a home that they don't teach you in design school. So yeah, I think it's a combination of having a natural instinct for style and taste, but then the actual bringing the projects to life is a whole different story.
Guy Kawasaki:
With hindsight, if only I had gone to Rhode Island School of Design, or if I had gone to whatever. What's that thing in Pasadena? So do you look back and say, "If only I had done that," or you look back and say, "I didn't need that after all"?
Shea McGee:
I think there was a time, especially in my early days, when I was going through the process of learning by trial and error that I just wished that I had had that schooling, but the fact that I went to school for something else, and I learned how to promote myself and market myself, ended up proving to be a huge part of the growth of our business, was that I knew how to design, but I also knew how to build a business by promoting myself. If I hadn't learned that I might've been a designer that wasn't able to build a business. Of course, there are things that I wish I would've learned in school, but I'm really glad that it worked out this way.
Guy Kawasaki:
I interviewed Kristi Yamaguchi for this podcast and she said one of her regrets in life is that she never got a college degree but, clearly, she did okay.
Shea McGee:
Things worked out for her okay. Yeah.
Guy Kawasaki:
I don't think her LinkedIn followers or her LinkedIn profile suffers because she doesn't here a college degree.
Shea McGee:
Right, right, right, right.
Guy Kawasaki:
Syd, I'd like to ask you this question. So from the outside looking in, to the extent you can do that, do you think that this business is an example of "pursue your passion and the money will come"?
Syd McGee:
Yeah. I mean, I think that Shea epitomizes that at a time when she was just curious about pursuing her love for design even further, I encouraged her just to explore that and I said, "Go back to community college and try some of these classes and see if you want to do that. You're not really finding joy in the work that you're doing at these ad agencies at this time."
It's funny because the dynamic between Shea and I is very like... Shea is very structured, likes order, likes rules, likes that you have to have a degree, and you follow the rules, and then you work your way up and then you get to earn your way to having a business if you follow all the rules."
My family and the way I was raised, I don't know if it's because of the Southern California culture, I was a surfer kid or what, it was, "Dude, you can do whatever you want. If you have a college degree, cool, if you don't, then you can be successful and do that." I was very much of the mindset of, "You don't need someone's permission to do this, you just need to go, and if you're good enough, the marketplace or the people will accept you."
I encouraged Shea to do that, and she did that. She started to use her Instagram to showcase the work that she was doing and kind of her passion and people really responded to that. They were like, "This is great. Can you come over to my house in the neighborhood and tell me what to do? Can you come to my house?" I remember helping her on a couple of projects and just seeing that, people were loving what she was doing. I was like, "This is great."
She didn't have the operational components of the business, but her business grew so quickly that she was like, "Hey, I need help. Can you help me with those things?" Because she had pursued her passion and then the business aspects followed that.
I think that's where the partnership of Shea and I really formed and her dream of pursuing design and building a design... We always joke and we call it a design empire. "We're going to build a design empire together. We'll show everybody,"... really forged together this relationship and her dream became our dream. "We're going to do this together. You take care of the passion side that you're really good at with design. And I will make sure that we operate, hire people and spend less money than we make every month." From a very rudimentary point of view but it was like, "Let's do this."
It was funny because you couldn't deny the response people had to Shea and her work. It was really fun to see that. And so, I just wanted to support Shea in that. We've grown a lot and we've grown each other. We've pushed each other to always do better. "Hey, what can we do?"
She was always pushing herself on the design front, but from a business point of view, "What can we do?" On the social platform, "How are we figuring that out?" And she'll push me as well to advance business things and go get deals done, because that's the direction we really want to go. I think that makes it work. So her passion definitely preceded the business.
Guy Kawasaki:
Now, thousands of people are going to hear this and they're going to say, "Oh, Syd and Shea said ‘pursue your passion and the money will come.’” That's not always true, right? I have a passion for surfing. There's no way I can make money surfing.
So do you have some really tactical tips about, "Okay, so you love to cook, does that mean you're a chef? You love to design homes, does that mean you're a designer? You love to..." Whatever. So, how do people know whether their passion can be viable as a business?
Syd McGee:
Yeah, I'm sure Shea will have some great tips. I mean, I know that you recently had Gary Vaynerchuk on?
Guy Kawasaki:
Yeah.
Syd McGee:
All right. I love Gary. I mean, I think that's kind of early on, I followed him. Some of his early books I read, and one of them was The Thank You Economy and I think he was using Twitter at that time, mostly, but then started to talk about Instagram. That's why I was like, "Shea, you need to make this connection and you use Instagram to do that."
But the one thing that's common that he says that I really believe in and wish would have done more of was having a side hustle or exploring those things that you want to do that you think are a potential business opportunity for you or a passion that may turn into a source of income - you do your day job and then you carve out some extra time to start to pursue that.
So whether that's you're starting a podcast on the side at night, you're starting to list things online, you're starting your social following and talking about what you're passionate about and then seeing the different avenues that you can go to see what gets some traction and what will work, that way you're not like, "I guess I kind of did it the stupid way. I quit my job, didn't know what I wanted to do. Good thing's Jay was killing it at this design thing because then that became what our business became." Like, that was it. It was like, "Hey, I know I'm trying to give you space to find your way, find your meaning in life, but I have this business exploding. Can you help me with it and work together?"
I look back in retrospect I should have just started to do some work on the side, even if that was with Shea or anything and then decide, “Okay, this is working? I'll quit now and go all in on this." I had taken the opposite approach so I definitely advise not to do that. I would advise to try to do it in the after-hours and then, once you start to get a little traction, go.
What would you add to that, babe?
Shea McGee:
I think everything he said is true. I think that you've always told me early on, even when I was designing, I'm like, "Let's go in on this." You're like, "Design is only scalable to a certain degree. What are we going to sell that's more scalable?" I think that any passion that you have, you got to kind of attach something.
If you want to grow a large business, there's got to be some component of it that's scalable. For us, that was products, but that could be courses or that could be anything. I think that having an idea, maybe, that your business can develop into selling something that's scalable is a huge, huge part of it as well.
Syd McGee:
I think the other aspect is just with the prevalence of social and how many personalities and people who are out there, you really kind of just had to identify what is your unique take on something? What is your perspective? What is unique about you and how do you present that in a business way so that you can start to have traction and not just be one of many, but figuring out your unique angle?
Maybe everyone does short form content so you're going to do a long form content podcast. Everyone's doing short videos of two minutes, three minutes, we'll, do an hour and a half. Something that's maybe.
I always love when people try to say, "This is how you do it. This is how you do everything." And it's like, "Well!" I think that when people are pushing those norms and those boundaries, that they really then produce something unique and people are attracted to that. So, that's what I would also encourage as well.
Guy Kawasaki:
Over your right shoulder, Shea, is that the famous fig leaf? I mean-
Shea McGee:
This is the famous fig leaf, yes.
Guy Kawasaki:
Really?
Shea McGee:
Yes!
Guy Kawasaki:
Yeah? That's it?
Shea McGee:
Yes. Well, this isn't the one, but it is reminiscent of the one that we had in our first home. So a special spot in my studio.
Syd McGee:
We can just pretend like we kept it alive. We didn't let that leaf die. We try.
Guy Kawasaki:
See, I really did read your book. I read your book. I read your book.
I have a kind of weird question here now. When you type in ‘studio-mcgee.com,’ it goes to where it should go, but if you type in studiomcgee, no hyphen, it goes to Lori McGee, photographer. So what happened there?
Syd McGee:
Oh man, you're bringing up old battles that were fought. I tried so hard to get that domain. Even very early days, I reached out to her. It had not been updated for many years, sustained like static images.
As we continue to grow, I'm sure Lori McGee was like, "I am getting so much traffic now. This is amazing." I offered her like a thousand, $5,000. Tried to do it very early on and she was just like, "No, I'm really personally attached to that domain. I can't let it go." I was like, "Oh my gosh, she's not going to give it up." So we try.
I mean, what a good lesson, right, no matter what. I mean, we established Studio McGee, we'd love the name, we felt like it resonated with who we were and it represented Shea and I equally. So you just keep rolling with the punches. So we got studio-mcgee was available and we went with it. But she's still got that page.
Shea McGee:
And now she's really never going to give it up.
Syd McGee:
She's never going to give it to us.
Guy Kawasaki:
But I could make the case that you can name your company, Studio McGee, but the name doesn't have to be identical with the domain. So you could get the domain studiomcgee.design, no hyphen, and wouldn't it be better than making sure that people type in the hyphen otherwise they're going to get a photographer?
Shea McGee:
No. Now our name is so widely known that as soon as you type in our name into a search bar, people know where to go so it's not been an issue. It is funny that she'll never give it up, and maybe lesson learned that maybe we should have approached her before we decided it is our business name.
Syd McGee:
No way. No, I love it. We're not going to... And I didn't want to do studiomcgee.design because I didn't want us to just be boxed into design only. I think that Shea and I knew early on that we wanted to do product. I think that we faced a lot of opposition to that.
As we started our business, we were these young kids coming into an established industry where everyone was typically a little bit older, fifties and sixties, and they had been doing this and working with brick and mortar stores forever. That was their bread and butter and that's what they knew and that's what they were comfortable with.
So here come these two kids from California and "They want to sell our stuff on the internet? What? No way. We don't trust the internet." Literally, this is the stuff we went through.
Guy Kawasaki:
We've come a long way.
Shea McGee:
We've come a long way.
Syd McGee:
"How would we keep an eye on that?" All that stuff, and it was like, "Okay, okay, we'll work through it." So Shea and I came back after meeting with multiple brands and we're like, "Okay, we're going to focus so hard on building such a good name in the design industry that we go back and they can't... They'll know who we are, they'll have to work with us,” and we did that. We took a couple years, we built our social media following, pretty substantial.
They started to come around and understand like, "Oh, we kept hearing we have to do Facebook, we have to do Instagram, but we don't know how to do that. How did you guys do it? Can you just tell us how you guys did that? Tell us how you did that and we'll let you sell our furniture,” and we were like, "Okay, well, we can help you. We can put your products on our web page and tag you on our social following so that you can start to grow and develop your social,” and so, they were, "Yeah, let's do that." That really opened the door for us to do that.
Guy Kawasaki:
So since we're on the topic of social, with hindsight, what do you think led to your great success on Instagram?
Shea McGee:
Well, I think there are a couple of things and the first being the timing. I started posting to Instagram as an interior designer very early in that world. There were only a few of us interior designers posting and using that platform as a promotional tool, just a couple designers. There was no way to pattern ourselves after and so I just had to figure it out.
I had to listen to my audience. I had to figure out and constantly test what type of photos worked and the cadence of how often to post. So I think being one of the earliest design Instagrammers and being willing to be consistent, I didn't take breaks, and I was also willing to make mistakes - I try a photo, test it out and learn from it, that played a huge role in it.
I think that a commitment to a high standard of visuals - we are never going to post a bad photo on our Instagram, it's only going to be beautiful photos that are well lit. We have a very distinct style that has played a part into it. Also, we were willing to share information.
The design industry has, historically, been very closed and designers are very secretive. I have trade secrets that I keep for my clients, but I'm also willing to share what paint color is on the walls. I'm also willing to share tips and tricks that people can take from the multimillion dollar homes that we're designing and share how they can apply them into a two-bedroom apartment. I think that that willingness to share has been a huge part of our success.
Syd McGee:
Shea is Shea McGee, so if you ask her to do something, if she does it, it is engage time. She's engaged and to the fullest, and she's going to do it the best that she can do it. So we talked and she's learned about algorithms and, well, what does that mean? And how does that work? And how do we test engagement? And what are people liking? And different angles. And do they like it with me in it? Do they like me not in it? Do they like me holding flowers? No, they don't like me holding flowers. All these are conversations that we would have.
Having gone to sleep, "Babe, are you asleep?" "Yeah." "Okay, great. Let's talk." So it is always like, how are we going to... What are we seeing? "Oh, okay. We're seeing right now, if we use this hashtag that's growing a lot" or different locations are getting reposted by other bigger companies, people that have bigger followings than us. All things that worked and have since lost their effectiveness. So you have to constantly be evolving what that looks like.
From the design aspect is that her designs are very pretty and elevated, but when you're in them, you feel like, "This feels great. I'm just kicking back." I think we did the same on social to make it feel like a place where you could come, you could learn, you could ask questions about design. A lot of people have taken that and replicated it at their own homes. We don't make anything from that, but what we decided to do was become like a source of a design leader that would help give information and distribute it so that people could do that in their own lives and people really, really like that.
Guy Kawasaki:
But wasn't that somewhat of an epiphany that you started off thinking, “We shouldn't share our secrets?” And then you did that and you saw how it led to more followers, which kind of led to everything else. Right?
Shea McGee:
Yeah. Well, I think, as Syd mentioned, I follow the rules and so, I, as someone coming from the outside, I was like, "Well, this is what designers do so I need to follow those rules. I need to keep it all." And then Syd wants to break all of them. He's like, "Oh, don't do what other designers are doing. You need to be your own person. I'm watching these fitness instructors share their workouts for free online and they're growing businesses because they're giving away information for free. You need to do that with design." Once that clicked for me, and I realized the type of relationships that I could develop with our audience, it became a very loyal one.
Guy Kawasaki:
In the spirit of giving away information, do you have one or a couple of just great tips? How do you master Instagram?
Shea McGee:
Oh, master Instagram…
Syd McGee:
Oh.
Shea McGee:
Consistency is the number one. You cannot take breaks because people lose interest. Everyone's attention span is so quick and people think, "Oh my gosh, you had this really overnight success,” and I'm like, "Well, I've been posting every single day for years and years and years, nonstop." You have to be patient, but also be consistent.
I think the other thing is that you have to develop your own unique point of view visually because it's a visual platform. If you go to your file and it looks like 300 other profiles out there, why would someone hit follow? You need to create your own visual identity.
Guy Kawasaki:
Syd, you got any advice as an Instagram husband?
Syd McGee:
I'm going to go work on my unique visual identity. Got to grow my Instagram a little bit. I mean, dude, she is so consistent. I mean, go back over the last seven years and try to find a day where there's not a photo posted.
It's just funny because I think social is an opportunity, the social media, and you can use it. It reminds me of a Dave Ramsey quote that said, "A lot of times, opportunity is dressed up in overalls and looks a lot like work,” and so, a lot of people miss it. That's what it is.
I mean, it is as well as being creative and good at what you do, you have to be really hardworking and consistent in posting that. I've seen Shea do that firsthand. Sometimes I didn't like it…
Shea McGee:
I'm going to chime in here and say that he is no longer an Instagram husband, because it's not disagreements about the business. We have had the most fights as a couple in this business from him taking photos of me and I'm like, "No, this is terrible. Why did you take it that way?"
Syd McGee:
Oh, it's the worst.
Shea McGee:
So, he has stepped away from that role and we have professional photographers come in because that was the source of a lot of contention.
Guy Kawasaki:
Wait, so your marital advice is hire a professional photographer? Is that what I just heard?
Shea McGee:
Yes.
Syd McGee:
I'm 110% happier. It's actually true, but I have gotten better at taking pictures too because I know the angles and all the stuff that she wants but it's exhausting, man. It's one of the hardest things I have to do.
Guy Kawasaki:
Isn't it as simple as the light should be in front of you and put him in the intersection of the rule of thirds? No? Not that simple?
Shea McGee:
No.
Syd McGee:
Oh, you would think so. You would think so.
Shea McGee:
Uh-uh.
Syd McGee:
It's not. High standards here, man.
Guy Kawasaki:
So doesn't this mean you're just slaves to feeding the content monster?
Shea McGee:
Yes.
Syd McGee:
Where have you been? This 2020, we all feed the beast. We all have to feed the beast.
Guy Kawasaki:
Now, are you jumping on TikTok as the next thing or are you an Instagram company and that's it?
Shea McGee:
Well, we do YouTube and we've-
Syd McGee:
Pinterest and-
Shea McGee:
And Pinterest and we have our blog. We haven't done TikTok, probably should, but I haven't branched out into that world yet. Pinterest is huge for us. It's just more of a slow growth over time, but the longevity of the content that we put out on Pinterest is incredible. I mean, people are still pending images that we put out there years ago. It's not a social platform necessarily, but it is a great marketing tool for our business.
YouTube is filled with users that, in my mind, are completely different. What they expect from us is very different than what our Instagram audience expects. So we have to differentiate the content quite a bit.
Syd McGee:
I mean, I think it's interesting that each social media is its own personality kind of, like the way that there's Instagram, and then Pinterest is much more full of people really trying to collect ideas for an upcoming project that they have. YouTube feels like a lot of people window shopping, they just want to enjoy the visuals. Then you have Instagram, they're very engaged, they just want to see the latest kind of some behind the scenes, more of a polished product though and get some info there and try to connect with us.
So each platform expects and wants something a little bit different from us. I don't know why Shea doesn't TikTok, she's a good dancer. I would love to see some TikTok dancing.
Guy Kawasaki:
So Syd, do you have a Pinterest board of surf board porn?
Syd McGee:
I do. I do.
Guy Kawasaki:
You do?
Shea McGee:
Yeah. Yeah.
Syd McGee:
Yeah. It's motorcycles, surf boards, and classic cars.
Shea McGee:
Are you long board or short board?
Syd McGee:
I was trying to tell Shea... I like classics. I like classic boards a lot. So the long board's always fun because you can have fun any day, right?
Guy Kawasaki:
Yeah.
Syd McGee:
And then, I love old fish boards, like twin fins or single fins. If you're a surfer, you get it. I'm not hot-dogging as much. I just like the classic flow. I really like just the enjoying being in the ocean and then just really kind of flowing with the waves.
Guy Kawasaki:
Well, a couple of things. We're going down a rat hole for a little bit.
Syd McGee:
That's okay. It's okay. Just hang in there.
Guy Kawasaki:
So hang in there. So number one, is I'm close friends with Bob Pearson so if you ever want a Pearson arrow, just let me know.
Syd McGee:
Okay.
Guy Kawasaki:
Number two, my shortest board is 9'11" just to give an indication.
Syd McGee:
Nice.
Shea McGee:
Nice.
Guy Kawasaki:
So yeah, I truly understand the love of boards. I should shoot a little video of my surf board shack – rack - storage, because this is like I have the McGee design of surf board shacks.
Syd McGee:
Okay.
Shea McGee:
Nice.
Syd McGee:
I need to see it. As for business, I need to see this.
Shea McGee:
Yeah.
Guy Kawasaki:
Yeah, yeah. You really should. Are there a lot of waves? You're in Utah, right? So you need a...
Syd McGee:
I know. What they have done, which is cool, is everyone's gone to this wake surfing thing so they make boats that put out a big wake. Some of the waves are like three feet, but it's really cool. So we've done some of that this year but we come back to California, maybe every like six weeks or something like that. So I have a couple of boards. I say a couple of boards, I have six boards out there that I just keep at my brother's house and then I'll pop to the beach.
I just love surfing. I think that I've looked at that a lot of times in what we're doing in our business. I think that Shea and I have talked a lot. I would go surf in the middle of winter, down at like Trestles, and it'd be so cold and I'd have a huge wetsuit on, and it would be like two feet - there'd be no one there. But I had a friend and we would always go. We would just say, "Hey, we're just going to go." Unless it's a lake, we're going to go, and we would have so much fun. There's no one there, little two-foot waves. And I just thought, “That's how it is.”
Happiness is a state of mind. So even if we were in a rental or we hadn't made it yet with our business or things were struggling, no matter your situation, you can choose to enjoy it and choose to be happy, or you can choose to not be happy. The things that you achieve, the money or the success, they don't make you happy. You need to make a conscious decision to make you happy.
I think we've found that in our work. I think I really attribute that back to surfing and just choosing, “I'm going to be happy no matter what.”
Guy Kawasaki:
Well, but Syd, more money can buy more boards.
Syd McGee:
More boards. Yeah. But then, more boards more problems, more boards more problems. What do you ride? And then, have the problem with the paradox of choice, right?
Guy Kawasaki:
I hear you. I hear you.
Syd McGee:
Then you look at those boards, there are one's looking lonely, they look lonely and they're mad at you.
Guy Kawasaki:
As further proof that I really read the book, there's a couple of paragraphs in there where you say, "Well, there are two kinds of surfers. One surfer is waiting for the perfect condition, perfect wave, perfect weather, no crowd, and the other surfer just goes out in anything." I'm the second kind of surfer just so you know.
Syd McGee:
Just go, man. I've been out on some crazy days, and my buddy and I look at it, we're like, "What are we doing? This is crazy, but we're having a good time, a good time."
Guy Kawasaki:
Okay, enough about surfing. I’d like to know what you learned from the incredible HGTV experience that you had.
Shea McGee:
Incredible, I don't know if it was incredible, but it was definitely a learning experience. Early on in our career, and by early, I mean, a production company, so it wasn't HGTV directly, so a production company reached out to us and we were only about six months into starting Studio McGee and they said, "Let's pitch a show with you guys in it." Of course, we said, yes.
We were so excited that someone even knew who we were. The learning experience was that they tried to make us something that we weren't Because of that, it didn't feel natural. I am so grateful that it didn't work out. I'm so glad that we got turned down. That was really what gave us the idea to start our webisodes and this short form content, and really get a sense for like, what do we value as a business? And part of that is being true to us.
We are not the designer-contractor relationship and because of that, I think that it was easy to pooh-pooh us because we didn't fit into that mold, but I also think that we saw it personally as a driving factor to continue to differentiate ourselves. It took years. I think it's been, what, four or five years since that time?
When we started talking to Netflix, of course, we get the question is, "Well, what does Syd do? What would he do on the show?" And we talked to them about that and they were like, "Okay, well, let's get this. I think that we just really want you guys to be you and then we'll see how this plays out."
Everyone that we had talked to previously, couldn't figure out how to do a design show without a designer-contractor husband and wife and we just made one and I'm really proud that we weren't acting, we didn't pretend to be something else, but it was a learning experience that we kind of lost ourselves, we let people push us into being something that we weren't and eventually it worked out.
Guy Kawasaki:
So with the Netflix series, are we going to see Syd like cranking Excel and watch the rows recalculate?
Shea McGee:
I think that Syd, one of his greatest assets as CEO of our business is that he makes everyone really comfortable. He's super laid back, but he also pushes people to get things done in a positive way. One of the biggest parts of design is when you meet with a client, you want them to be comfortable enough with you that they trust you.
I'm always ready to get down to the design, into the business, and let's knock out some walls. Syd can really just talk to people and work his magic to make them laugh and get them to be on board with all of my wild ideas. That dynamic is where he comes in in the show. Not cranking on Excel but being himself, and that usually means just working with people.
Guy Kawasaki:
I think a lot of people listening to this are going to say, "Syd, man, I would really like to know more about the tactics." So I have some tactical questions. Okay?
Syd McGee:
Okay.
Guy Kawasaki:
So number one is, I bet a lot of people want to know what's your favorite camera to use.
Shea McGee:
For video or photo?
Guy Kawasaki:
Both.
Shea McGee:
So for video, we have a very, very small one-person team. So it is not a whole production crew. We use a Canon 5D, the Mark III, is what we use for video. For the photo shoots that we do in our interiors, that is different because we hire - it depends on the photographer that we're using. We'll use the Manfrotto tripod, that's the tripod that we use. And-
Guy Kawasaki:
Okay.
Syd McGee:
Good one.
Shea McGee:
We use the Konova Slider so that's how we get the wider shots of our interiors. I mean, we're like put it into a little bag and carry it with us. It's not a big setup. Because we love natural light, we do not use artificial light when we shoot.
Guy Kawasaki:
At all?
Shea McGee:
No. Well, occasionally, if it's like a bathroom that has no windows, but if it has a window in it, we use only natural light. We'll make that shutter speed so slow so it just takes in the natural light.
Guy Kawasaki:
That's why you need a Manfrotto tripod.
Shea McGee:
Yeah, exactly.
Syd McGee:
Only if you're serious.
Guy Kawasaki:
And how about the phones you use?
Shea McGee:
iPhone.
Guy Kawasaki:
iPhone 6, 7, 8, 9, X, 11, or 12? Which one?
Syd McGee:
Always the latest.
Shea McGee:
Always the latest. I don't even know what the latest is right now, but always the latest.
Guy Kawasaki:
Okay. When you take these photos and video, do you put them in Lightroom or do you put them in an Apple Photos? What's the workflow?
Shea McGee:
For photo, we use Lightroom and we use... Oh my gosh, what's the... we use Premiere to edit the video.
Guy Kawasaki:
By any chance, do you use Canva?
Shea McGee:
I do. I was actually so excited to tell you that we use it a lot. For presentations, yes, but my other favorite way to use it is we do all of our group mood boards on it.
So we'll create these decks, and let's say it's for holiday, and then we have an ornament board. We can all be adding to it at the same time. We can see it in real-time and edit, make notes. It's just so quick and intuitive that we completely switched over from other programs that we were using.
Guy Kawasaki:
Boy, I couldn't pay for a better endorsement, frankly.
Shea McGee:
Yeah, there you go.
Syd McGee:
Well, you can. You can pay us.
Guy Kawasaki:
How about I send you a board?
Syd McGee:
Yeah, do.
Shea McGee:
Yeah, you've got it.
Guy Kawasaki:
Tell me what color because I don't want it to clash in the room with your...
Syd McGee:
Yeah. Yeah.
Guy Kawasaki:
I'm really curious, for a design couple like you, what kind of cars do you drive?
Shea McGee:
I drive a BMW X7. You'll appreciate the color combination more than the car, it's white on the outside with a peanut butter leather interior. So for me, that's all I cared about was the color combination and that it fit kids nicely.
Syd McGee:
Yeah. No, I drive a Ford Raptor. It's really big inside. I bought it because the kids, when they're in their car seats, couldn't kick the front seat. I was like, "We're sold. Let's do it because it has-
Shea McGee:
And you can carry all your bikes in the back.
Syd McGee:
Right. Surf boards and everything. I need a truck. I'm a truck guy.
Guy Kawasaki:
I thought you were going to say like a G-Class Mercedes or something.
Shea McGee:
That's so funny because I've been trying to get him to get one, but he won't get rid of his truck.
Guy Kawasaki:
Really?
Shea McGee:
Yeah.
Syd McGee:
It's just too functional, man.
Guy Kawasaki:
Does it have a shotgun rack or anything?
Syd McGee:
Oh, that'd be cool but-
Shea McGee:
You’ve got to remember, we live in Utah. In Utah trucks are everywhere!
Guy Kawasaki:
Can you describe, when you do a McGee design photoshoot, how does it work? Is it you're up at dawn, and it takes twelve hours? Well, now that I know you don't use lights, you don't have to set up lights, so do you just show up, shoot and go? I mean-
Shea McGee:
You make it sound so simple because we don't use the lights, but-
Guy Kawasaki:
No, it makes it harder, in my opinion, but okay.
Shea McGee:
Oh, yeah. It's hard. Yeah. So, it depends on the type of photoshoot.
So let's say if it's a project, we are usually installing the project for days. So we've been working on the build of the home for like a year and a half to that point. We get the keys and typically the contractors are still finishing up the home and we are trying to move in all of the furniture, make all the beds, put all of the pillows in place, the trees, the artwork, put family photos and picture frames. After days of doing that, the photographer comes and we are just exhausted, but because no one has lived in the home, we get a fresh home that's perfectly made to take the photos. We do that for a day or two.
When we shoot catalogs, it's like truckloads of things. We just cover the lawn with bins of props and accessories. And it's a total mess. It's a disaster to shoot catalogs, but the result looks so peaceful and beautiful.
Syd McGee:
From an outsider's perspective, it is crazy to watch. They're just bringing in so much stuff, moving things around, styling, placing things, placing little accessories, replacing them, replacing them again, then getting the perfect shot. Lighting, and then they come check, "Well, where's the sun direction?" Okay. I'm like, "Sun dire... What the heck?" Sun direction and shadows and everything to get everything just right.
Shea McGee:
Well, if we're setting a dinner scene, where do you think that food's coming from? We have to then make the food look good so then you have grocery bags of food and silverware and drinks, and that's not even considering the products that we're trying to capture.
Syd McGee:
I'll come in eat some of the food or I'll clean up.
Guy Kawasaki:
This is often happening at your house?
Shea McGee:
It does often happen at our house, especially now with COVID, we don't go into as many houses and so our home ends up being the photoshoot location. Just by nature of social media, a lot of the photo shoots end up at our house. Yes, it's a mess.
Guy Kawasaki:
So, how do you balance this, your house, your relationship, your kids? I mean, that's a lot of balls to juggle. How do you make that work? Do you have advice for working couples?
Shea McGee:
I think that Syd and I really have found that, in business, we have to separate all responsibilities and trust each other to run with those or else we will step on each other's toes and there's conflict. I think early on, we did have that because we didn't have clear boundaries of responsibilities. Once we decided that, really, we do not butt heads when it comes to business, because we have a very strong trust in each other.
It's funny because at home there's like no clear division of responsibilities. It's the total opposite because it's just like whoever is available to run the kids to tennis lessons or, "Oh my gosh, they forgot their lunch. Can you run it to school? Do you have a minute between meetings?" It's just a free-for-all, all hands on deck when it comes to home life. Over the years, we've grown our team to handle more things so that we can have a home life. It wasn't always that way.
Syd McGee:
Yeah. I think one of the fortunate effects of working with Netflix to do the show was that we had to commit so much time to doing the show that our team had to really get used to life without us being there every moment of the day. Our leaders at the company started really stepping up and really getting used to working without us and to manage their teams in a way that we would just check in with them and really give them responsibility and the autonomy to make decisions without us. That has been really beneficial to us.
It's funny, we're like a modern family in the sense that it's not like, "You're the guy, so you should do that. You're the woman, you should do that." It's whatever. I'm doing dishes, making lunch. I've tried to pick the kids' clothes out. It's horrible. I do a terrible job. One in 100, one in 100 times that she's, "Good job." I'm like, "Okay, I'll change... Wait, did you just say a good job? Oh my gosh, I did it. I did it. I did it." So there's things I’m bad at, but I still try to do it.
It's funny because I think that we're very fortunate to have what we have. It is chaotic and crazy at times, yes, but I think that we've also really come together close as a family in what we do. We support each other, I think Shea and I show our kids that you can have a different relationship, it doesn't have to be so standard, that we support each other, that we encourage each other to pursue our dreams and to make it happen and that we are available to be around for our kids, as opposed to me maybe fall in a more traditional lifestyle where I have to work all the time, travel a ton and be away and not get to see them as much and maybe Shea would be here more. We found that we can work a lot and we can also support each other and be with our kids a lot.
A couple of other things we carve out, family vacations, and we plan them. We put them on the books every year, like this is going to happen, because if we don't, yeah, photoshoot, photoshoot, install, install, project, and then the year's over, and you're like, "What? We just started." So we put those on the books, and when we go, we check out and we just focus with our family and kids at that time to really connect with them and be together. So we have high concentrated amount of time.
Guy Kawasaki:
Question about your book. First of all, I love the title, all right?
Shea McGee:
Thank you.
Guy Kawasaki:
So tell us about your book and in particular, tell us about the process of two people writing a book. Those of you listening to the podcast, when you buy this book, you'll see that there's a section by Syd and there's a section by Shea, and it's kind of he-said-she-said in some places. So tell us about the book and the process of writing the book.
Shea McGee:
So our book is Make Life Beautiful, and as a design firm, I think that people expected us to come out with a coffee table book, a book filled with beautiful imagery. We felt like people get beautiful imagery from us every day, but they don't always get the real messy, behind the scenes, and we really wanted to do something different. That is how this came about.
Make Life Beautiful has been our mantra from the very beginning. It was about, yes, creating beautiful moments in homes, but it was also about its challenging situations, choosing to see the good in that situation, and that's where that came from for us.
So when we were writing the book, we realized this is two different perspectives. We can't just have this be one voice, there's two people here. People are used to hearing my voice, but Syd is just as much a part of this as I am and his perspective is different than mine. What we did was we really outlined kind of each big event that we felt was a turning point or a pivotal moment throughout this process and we would kind of walk through it and then divide... I'd write down what I was writing and then he would kind of chime in and be like, "Oh, okay, well, from my perspective, it was this way."
I would kind of start and then he would fill in his spots to the story and it became a really nice back and forth with a little bit of banter. That is very much a representation of our relationship as well. I think that it was a good fit that way, to do it. I think is fun because we are so different, I think, or so different personality-wise too so you get to see that we have created a business together, but it has been from two very different perspectives.
Guy Kawasaki:
Well Syd now, you get to say-
Syd McGee:
What do you want me to say? I mean, she's got it right.
Guy Kawasaki:
Something about the book. I mean-
Shea McGee:
Sorry, Syd.
Syd McGee:
No, it's fine. It's fun because I think it's fun to recount those things. I think, at times, it seems like our journey was taking so long and we are like painfully crawling through the sand and over broken glass and that we were just, "Is this going to work? It is actually going to work?" It was really hard at times to continue to pursue this dream and this thing that we had found ourselves engaged in. I think that dynamic of going back and forth and what's her perspective and what's her take and what's mine gives color to that story.
True to form, we don't feel like we've made it. We haven't accomplished everything and we're done and we're going to retire. It's maybe halfway through. I think, we wanted to share our story to this point to provide encouragement to other people, to say like, "Hey, I mean, even Syd did this, I could do this, probably. I need to pursue my journey."
I think that we wanted to show people like, “Hey, there are things and it's crazy and it's messy, but it's fun and you can do it, so you should give it a go. I think that's where we've come to and, hopefully, our book kind of illustrates some of those things of what's required and the amount that...
You do have to sacrifice and you do have to choose what things you do focus on and what you think is important to you because when you choose to go down on some of these endeavors, you're just not going to have time to do everything, it's not always going to be fun, and it's not going to have the time to do all the fun things. You're going to have to focus and work relentlessly to run down the dream, to chase down that dream that you want to come to you.
Guy Kawasaki:
What should people expect when they watch your Netflix series, “Dream Home Makeover”?
Shea McGee:
Well, expect some really good before and after’s. We're not going to disappoint on that. We're delivering before and after’s.
I think there's a couple things that make our show different than other home shows and that is that we're showing a really wide range of types of projects. We have huge multimillion dollar homes, and then we'll do a one-room makeover. I really wanted to show that it's possible to apply design principles in a wide range of settings and for different types of family and people. You see diversity there.
You're also getting more... We lift the curtain a little bit more on our relationship and our family dynamic while running a business. It's not a one-person designed crew. You see that we have a team that is working on these projects. I think that that's what you're getting yourself into is, at the end of the day, you're getting a little bit more of the people behind the scenes, but then you're also getting some killer before and after’s.
Guy Kawasaki:
So speaking of makeovers, I sent you a picture of what's behind me.
Shea McGee:
Yes.
Guy Kawasaki:
What would you do differently? Now, I have to tell you that... I know you're not big into black. I don't think, anyway, looking at your Instagram feed, but these acoustic tiles, they only come in black. I can't order them in sand or whatever or chalk. What would you tell me about my background?
Shea McGee:
I like black. Syd's office is really dark, so I'm not opposed to doing a dark space. I like it.
My advice would be to add a little bit of greenery. I think that you can see I love a little fiddly fig poking in or some sort of plant. You want to make sure that it doesn't look like it's coming out of the back of your head, of course, but a little bit poking into the image, I think, goes a long way but it looks good.
Guy Kawasaki:
Now, are you just saying that and being nice or you're got to-
Shea McGee:
I'm being nice. Yeah!
Syd McGee:
No, you look good on black, dude. I thought so.
Shea McGee:
You look good against black!
Guy Kawasaki:
Okay. Well, I'm relieved. I was like worried the whole time, you're just going to tell me, "Oh, you need a complete and utter makeover.
Shea McGee:
No.
Syd McGee:
She's going to start it there so you could relax.
Guy Kawasaki:
That's why I didn't press the record button. I was so worried.
Shea McGee:
You look good. I love that you have your books back there. It's great.
Guy Kawasaki:
All right. Thank you.
Syd McGee:
Have you actually read those books?
Guy Kawasaki:
Some of them I wrote, so yeah. Okay. Now, truly, my last question because I know you have to post one picture a day at the very least. So I think of all people-
Shea McGee:
Well, I got to take a picture of this, I feel like right now.
Guy Kawasaki:
Yeah, let's both do that. All right. You can post this on Instagram.
Shea McGee:
Wait, Syd-
Syd McGee:
No, sorry, I was falling out of the chair.
Guy Kawasaki:
Okay. Look at the camera.
Shea McGee:
There we go. Love it!
Guy Kawasaki:
Okay. So, my last question, because probably you are two of the best people in the world to address this question. How do you find a good contractor?
Shea McGee:
Oh, I would say, first answer is always ask your neighbors. I feel like I usually don't recommend contractors to my clients unless it's a contractor that I've worked with many, many times, because some contractors will have like a good project and then they'll have kind of a rough experience. I would start with the neighbor.
I would ask that contractor to give you a few references and really follow up and ask those references questions about the process, because it's very telling. I have one other tip: if you know the architect or the designer that has worked with that contractor on other projects, I would ask them about the working relationship as well.
He's like, “no.”
Syd McGee:
I'd say, you really just want to get an insight to the character of the contractor, because that can make a huge difference. Are they really thorough in doing their work? Are they really good at communicating issues to you in a prompt way? Because you want to know as soon as possible when something's going wrong so that you can address it, because usually it's going to have budget implications and it's going to have project timeline implications.
You just want to know if they're a good guy or if they're going to be like, "This project is crazy," and then they take off and you're like, "I don't even know how to find the guy anymore,” and then realize he had a burner cell phone and doesn't call people back. You got to watch it because sometimes you hear these things and it happens so much. So people that have worked with them, so any clients and then contractors working with architects and designers, they can give you really good insight to that relationship.
Guy Kawasaki:
All right. Well, thank you very much.
Syd McGee:
That was fun.
Guy Kawasaki:
Oh, by the way, do you know about the reMarkable tablet? Have you ever heard about this thing?
Syd McGee:
Yeah, and I think it's awesome.
Guy Kawasaki:
A tablet that it feels just like writing with a pencil. So I've been taking notes and stuff as we go along, right, it would be great for you guys to do sketches and stuff. So anyway-
Shea McGee:
Yeah, that's cool.
Guy Kawasaki:
The Remarkable People podcast is sponsored by the reMarkable tablet company, so you're each going to get one of these. So, we'll be sending them to you.
Syd McGee:
Wow!
Shea McGee:
Thank you!
Guy Kawasaki:
So yeah.
Syd McGee:
I was about to go buy one today because I heard you talking about it on your last podcast and I was like, "That sounds so cool." You only have to charge it like every two weeks or something.
Guy Kawasaki:
Two weeks, yeah. And you know what? You never have to charge the pencil, and the pencil, this is the pencil, unlike an iPod pencil, you just, A: never have to charge it, but you flip it around and you just erase, and it erases whatever you wrote on the pad.
Syd McGee:
That's sweet.
Guy Kawasaki:
Which is just magic to me.
Shea McGee:
Yeah.
Guy Kawasaki:
Another advantage of it is, let's say you sketch a design or something or you take notes from a client meeting, well, immediately thereafter, it's going to sync to the cloud. So then, you have a second copy of all your notes and all your sketches, and you can go to your desktop and look at your sketches and stuff. You're not stuck in this tablet world. So it's very useful.
Syd McGee:
That's so cool.
Shea McGee:
That's cool.
Syd McGee:
That's really cool. Thank you.
Guy Kawasaki:
All right. So thank you very much.
Shea McGee:
Thank you.
Syd McGee:
Yeah.
Guy Kawasaki:
And we'll certainly help you try to get some book sales and viewers on Netflix.
Shea McGee:
Thank you.
Guy Kawasaki:
All right. So thank you very much, and it's been a pleasure, truly a pleasure. Thank you so much.
Shea McGee:
Yeah, you're wonderful. Thank you so much for having us.

Guy Kawasaki:
I just want you to know that because of Shea's comment, I went out and got a fig plant. So if you see me in a virtual keynote or some kind of conference or a call, you'll see that there's a fig plant over my left shoulder, that's because of Shea McGee.
I hope you enjoyed this episode. There's so much to learn from them about grit, determination, division of labor, working together as a couple. I really enjoyed this episode, I hope you can tell. Be sure to read their upcoming book, Make Life Beautiful, and watch their new Netflix series, “Dream Home Makeover.”
I'm Guy Kawasaki, and this is Remarkable People. My thanks to the dynamic duo of podcasting, Jeff Sieh and Peg Fitzpatrick.
Until next time, wash your hands, wear a mask, and stay, let's say, ten feet away from others, don't go into crowded bars, restaurants, and gardens, and listen to scientists and doctors. Mahalo and Aloha.
This episode of Remarkable People is brought to you by reMarkable - the paper tablet company.

This is Remarkable People.