Frederick Joseph

Guy Kawasaki:
I'm Guy Kawasaki. This is Remarkable People. I'm on a mission to make you remarkable.
Today's guest is Frederick Joseph.
He's the founder and CEO of We Have Stories. This is a nonprofit creative agency that supports projects to foster greater equality in the world.
In this episode, honestly, you'll see how little I know about the current black culture, but at least I know what I don't know, and I'm willing to learn.
Frederick created the largest GoFundMe campaign in history, it was called the Black Panther Challenge. It raised over $950,000, and it allowed more than 75,000 children worldwide to see Black Panther, the movie, for free.
Frederick was a national surrogate for the Elizabeth Warren and Bernie Sanders presidential campaigns and was selected for the Forbes Under Thirty list in 2019.
He was a member of the 2018 Root 100 list of Most Influential African Americans. And the winner of the 2018 Comic-Con’s Humanitarian of the year award.
Frederick is the New York Times bestselling author of The Black Friend: On Being a Better White Person.
And his new book is called Patriarchy Blues: Reflections On Manhood.
The Black Friend is fantastic, every teenager should read it. Getting a book with that title passed the sensors in the many fiefdoms, AKA states, into United States these days.
At the end of the interview, I thought I came up with a brilliant idea for Snoop Dog in the NFL, but Frederick trumped me by a factor of ten…don't miss this drop the mic moment.
It may be funniest moment in the history of The Remarkable People Podcast.
And Snoop Dog, if you're listening, have your people contact my people.
And for those of you who are going to stop listening to my podcast because of this episode, have a happy rest of your life.
I'm Guy Kawasaki. This is Remarkable People.
And now, here is Frederick Joseph, a remarkable black friend.
One of my goals in life is that you come out of this interview thinking that guy prepared more than any other person I've ever spoken to and asked the best questions.
Frederick Joseph:
First and foremost, the fact that you read both my books, you've already prepared more than everyone I've interviewed with over the last five years.
Guy Kawasaki:
Combined.
Frederick Joseph:
It's funny, I come from the generation where people focus on one thing as opposed to the totality of a person a lot of times. And so people read the first book or the second book, or see a philanthropic thing I did, and they're oh, I didn't even think to check anything else about you as a person.
Guy Kawasaki:
Yeah. I can't tell you I read every single page and underlined everything but-
Frederick Joseph:
Of course, but you did what was necessary to get the gist of the things, and that makes perfect sense.
Guy Kawasaki:
I guarantee you I prepared more than 99.99 percent.
Frederick Joseph:
Well, it makes a lot of sense based on who you are also, you don't get to be at the point you are in your career in life without being an extremely prepared person, so I appreciate it.
Guy Kawasaki:
You may get further, but anyway, did you ever tell your grandmother about the whole shoplifting thing? You said you lied to your grandmother, did you ever come clean and tell her the whole story?
Frederick Joseph:
I didn't, I like to think I would have. My grandmother actually passed when I was eighteen. She passed to breast cancer, so she actually didn't even get to see me graduate from high school.
But I figured that there would be this moment where I would tell her everything that I was doing as a younger person, I never got the opportunity to do that though. She knows, wherever she is now, she knows.
Guy Kawasaki:
She knows. She probably knew already.
Frederick Joseph:
There's this thing that mothers and grandmothers have, they just know. I'm pretty sure that every single thing I've ever written about in my book, she knows for the most part and knew at the time, and she's just, when he's ready to tell me he'll tell me, and that's what it is.
Guy Kawasaki:
I don't know if you really answered this, but when you were in Amsterdam and that person asked you, so you live in a country where there's a racist president and cops are killing black people, et cetera, why don't you and Porsche move? Have you figured out the answer to that question?
Frederick Joseph:
I think that I've thought about it a lot, especially as I was writing Patriarchy Blues, why not move? So, my book after Patriarchy Blues, Better Than We Found It, which you did not get to read it because it's not available yet.
But that book that I wrote with Porsche made me ask that a lot, if all these things are wrong, why not leave?
But I think that this country was built on the backs of my ancestors, the back of indigenous people, the backs of people of color as a whole, and there seems to be something inside of me that says that makes it worth fighting for.
This country belongs as much to black, brown, AAPI people as it does any white supremacist.
So, that makes me want to stay and fight for it. I might need a break, I might need some time away, I think some of the greats before us have done that, the James Baldwin and people of that nature, but I'm going to always fight for our people of color to be liberated in this country.
Guy Kawasaki:
A personal question that violates HIPAA, but how's your MS?
Frederick Joseph:
That's a lovely question that a lot of people violate HIPAA very often.
If I'm being really transparent, I had COVID for the second time, a few months ago and I was really, really sick.
And I'm now dealing with some of the long COVID effects from that, and it being worse because of my immune-compromission with MS.
So, I have my days, like today's a good day. Before we jumped on here, I got to go for a run and breathe, and it was the first time in maybe months that I felt like I could breathe, but then yesterday morning, I could barely feel my hands, I had lost sensation in them when I woke up in the morning.
So, all the writing I had planned to do that day and the edits on books and things, I couldn't even do it I just had to lay down and just hope that it subsided.
Guy Kawasaki:
I read the day in the life of Frederick, and you get up, you take your dog, you come back, you take your dog, then you're too tired, and your MS kicks in and you can't type.
How did you write a book between the two books that I read it was only a couple years, so how did you write the second book with all those conditions?
Frederick Joseph:
Funny enough, I actually wrote three books this year.
So, the Black Friend I wrote in 2019, but I wrote Patriarchy Blues, Better Than We Found It, and I also wrote the picture book that's coming out for Black Panther Two with Marvel studio.
My grandmother is probably what gives me some extra jolt of when I have the ability to write and do work, her soul pours into me and I just go. I think her being a black woman from South Carolina facing all the things that she did, I grew up with that pumping through my veins, my mother's a hard worker.
So, whenever I'm feeling good, I'm on a thousand, not even a hundred, I'm on a thousand those days, and I feel good, I just know. So, I guess, I don't know if that's necessarily a good answer, but it's the answer when I feel good I go.
Guy Kawasaki:
I've read two of those three books and there are a couple years between the two books that I read, and I have to say that the change in your writing is just remarkable and astounding.
Now, I read your first book first and I have to say, I just love the little zingers and the gray bars. You have perfected zingers and gray bars.
And to be quite transparent when I read your second book, I was so looking forward to more zingers and gray bars, but you've changed as the writer.
So, what happened in those two years that you zoomed on the maturity scale or something? I'm not trying to insult you saying you were immature.
Frederick Joseph:
No, not at all.
Guy Kawasaki:
I'm just saying, wow, you changed.
Frederick Joseph:
I think one thing that people didn't realize about the first book it's a young adult book, so the intended age is actually twelve and up for the Black Friend, that's intended, that book is primarily in classrooms with teachers, things like that.
So, I do think that because of the fact that people didn't realize that when you read it, you're not realizing, oh, I'm writing for twelve-year-olds to make it accessible for them.
Patriarchy Blues, for me, it's a highly conceptual book. It's a different style of writing, I play with a lot of different things in it, from poetry to messing around with my pros and essays and things of that nature, and there was a lot happening, I'm a different person also in that book.
Then I go back to the Black Friend style somewhat in my next book after that.
So, I think I want to have a career where people don't ever put me in a box, I want to shock people.
I think I love the Black Friend style, and I actually think that the Black Friend will make a really good television show with the breaking below the floor fall and anecdotes and things like that. But I like to keep people on the toes.
Guy Kawasaki:
So first of all, Queen Latifah has to play your grandmother, I mean, if that comes true.
Frederick Joseph:
I could definitely see that.
Guy Kawasaki:
Right?
Frederick Joseph:
I could definitely see that, I'd love that.
Guy Kawasaki:
Queen Latifah, forget this equalizer bullshit.
Frederick Joseph:
I love that idea. I think about that all the time, like casting and I actually know who I would want to play me as well, so it's so funny.
Guy Kawasaki:
Who?
Frederick Joseph:
Have you ever seen a show Blackish?
Guy Kawasaki:
Okay. Just as an aside, I learned more about black culture in the last two days, reading your books than I learnt in sixty-seven years of my life.
Just to show you the extreme, I didn't know who Nelly was until three days ago, is that pathetic?
Frederick Joseph:
Wait what? That's literally impossible. So, I could see like-
Guy Kawasaki:
I'm a sixty-seven-year-old Asian American, how do I know who Nelly is?
Frederick Joseph:
I hear you. I think that everything is generational also Nelly was like, you know who drake is, of course, you heard of him?
Guy Kawasaki:
Yeah.
Frederick Joseph:
Nelly, was like the Drake of the early 2000s, he was massive, he was massive in spaces. I mean, you were super busy during that time taking over the world and whatnot.
Just for context, I don't know if this was mentioned before forehand, but I've also read your books. But not only did I read your books, but I read one of your books when I was in grad school, getting my MBA in marketing, how funny is that?
Guy Kawasaki:
Oh, my and you still agreed to the interview? Just to back up a little bit, may I point out that, should I take it as an insult that I loved Black Friend and that's intended for twelve-year-olds?
Frederick Joseph:
No, no.
Guy Kawasaki:
You don't think I have a twelve-year-old brain?
Frederick Joseph:
Not at all. In all honesty, I think that most of us, how can I put this? I think that there are books that are written as pieces of art, and that is something that resonates with people in a different way.
And I think that's Patriarchy Blues. Patriarchy Blues is intended for very specific people who are willing to sit with.
But the Black Friend, I wrote it to be fun, I wrote the Black Friend to be conversational. I wrote the Black Friend so we can do things like this, and for lack of a better term, shoot the shit and talk about issues. That makes perfect sense to me.
Guy Kawasaki:
So, what you're saying is that Black Friend was targeted to Guy, and Patriarchy Blues was targeted to Terry Gross. I understand that. I'm not stupid. I'm a quick study.
I also have to tell you just fanboying out a little more, that I love the encyclopedia of racism, it's not good to laugh about something like that, but that was a freaking fantastic idea.
So, the gray bar and the encyclopedia racism, and then I'm going to read your quote that when I read this, I had to laugh out loud, okay?
So, the quote is, “If you feel you don't need to read this book because you're already a decent white person, there's a good chance you're not as decent as you think.”
And I was like, “Holy shit, I love this guy.”
Frederick Joseph:
I think that all of us have our privileges in our own ways in all of this. Something that all of us don't know, so the very moment that you get to this idea that everything you need to know about another group or about whatever, that's when you have the real issue.
I want to come on here and you'd be like, “Oh, Fred, I didn't know certain things about black communities”, in the same way, I can tell you guy, I learned so much when the moment really rows of Stop Asian Hate, I learned so much during that moment.
And I hate that it had to come in that moment, but all of my friends that are in the AAPI community taught me a lifetime worth of things. And that's the way it works, we all are in our spaces and we have to step outside of them.
Guy Kawasaki:
Speaking of stepping outside, so exactly what is a good man?
Frederick Joseph:
Ooh, I think that's difficult. I was having a conversation earlier with a high school class.
Guy Kawasaki:
So, gross.
Frederick Joseph:
I was having your... Look at your life, I was having a conversation with a class of high school students, about 200 students, I guess that's not a class, it was like a bunch of classes, and one of the things that got brought up was a similar question, Oh, what makes you a good person? Not necessarily a man, but a good person?”
And I think that the two are the same thing, I think I view the world through harm reduction. I think that people are inherent imperfect, anybody who tells you that they're perfect is lying.
Men are going to be imperfect, women are going to be imperfect, people who are heterosexual are going to be imperfect so on and so forth, but as long as you're choosing daily as a man, specifically to your question, to be better to every single day choose to be a little bit better than you were yesterday, better about misogyny, better about homophobia, better about transphobia. It doesn't mean that you'll ever be the Grand Poobah of wokeness or something like that, but it does mean that you're trying to reduce the amount of harm that you cause in the world.
And that to me is being a good man.
Guy Kawasaki:
How does one become one?
Frederick Joseph:
I think a lot of time in self-reflection. I think that you have to wake up and decide that that's what you want to be, that's the first step.
I write about that in Patriarchy Blues, I have been many things in my life, at times I've been deeply misogynistic, at times I've been someone super uneducated about other communities, the trans community, and the gay community. But I made a decision one day to try to learn more in my teens and twenties, so I did.
And I'm learning more as the days go by, so reading books, watching documentaries, being in conversation, sharing space, things like this literally being in conversation with people who are not like yourself and come from different backgrounds and different experiences is how we grow. I think that those are the steps, put yourself in spaces and make yourself a little bit uncomfortable.
Guy Kawasaki:
Do you think that you can become a good man without a father or father figure?
Frederick Joseph:
Oh, absolutely. I'd like to think that I'm a good man in progress, I'm doing everything that I can. I mean, my father wasn't around, and I write about that in Patriarchy Blues, I write a letter to him, he left when I was a child, he was very abusive towards my mother and things like that.
And I think I was lost for a long time, because I didn't have necessarily a man in my life that was overseeing my progress into manhood. But I do think that along the way, thanks to really powerful women and other men stepping up who are fathers of some of my friends and uncles and things like that, it really set me on a path eventually.
Guy Kawasaki:
Most listeners won't necessarily understand this context.
So when you answer this question, you're going to just have to cover from my poor question.
Frederick Joseph:
Okay.
Guy Kawasaki:
I want to know, oh, and before I ask you the question, I also have to establish that I know that as a fighter, you are thirty-eight and two, okay?
Frederick Joseph:
Yes, yes.
Guy Kawasaki:
Okay.
So, Frederick Joseph thirty-eight and two, what's your advice when you see "Tweedle dumb and Tweedle D" harassing a black trans person?
Frederick Joseph:
That is a hell of a question. If I see two, they don't even have to be white, if I see two problematic men harassing a black trans woman or a black trans person in general, young me would opt for punching them in the back of the head. But I don't think we should do that.
Guy Kawasaki:
Thirty-eight and two.
Frederick Joseph:
Right. And an older, wiser, more thoughtful me step in and have a conversation. Go back to that harm reduction that I was talking about a few minutes ago and just step in and protect that person.
So, if it does escalate to certain things, then you handle it as you need to. But I do think that placing yourself emotionally, physically, mentally in a place where that person's harm is reduced and you're protecting that person means the world. Honestly, it can save a life also.
Guy Kawasaki:
So you are saying, you can't just look away, you're saying, step in there?
Frederick Joseph:
Yeah. I say something in the Black Friend, one of my focus points is we don't need allies, we need accomplices, and I think that my view on the world is that a lot of people are inherently good. I think a lot of people want the world to be better, but those people have never gotten their hands dirty being in the trenches to make it happen.
And that doesn't necessarily mean that you have to be on the front lines of protests, it doesn't mean that you have to have a cardboard box every time something happens and you're outside, yelling until you lose your voice. What it means is that you're stepping in and using your resources to do something.
So, I do think in moments where something's happening in front of you, that can be deeply detrimental to the person being harmed it is up to us to not just turn away.
The other day actually, not to carry on, but I saw two young men, one seemed be of Asian descent, and another one was black, and they were being arrested near my house.
And I live in a pretty affluent community in New York City, and they were being arrested.
So, I pulled over my car and it was about fifteen cops. And there were just two young boys and there's fifteen police officers.
So, I'm not going to run over and tackle the police officers, I'm not going to do any of that, but I'm going to stand there so that the young men know that somebody's watching, it's okay, calm down.
And let the police also know, “Hey, I'm a member of this community, I live here, can you tell me what's going on? Is everything okay? I'm just trying to make sure that based on historical context, that these young men are going to safely make it to whatever destination you're going to bring them to?”
And that should be fine, and it's the little things like that could actually save lives.
Guy Kawasaki:
So, did you whip out your camera?
Frederick Joseph:
So, I had my phone in my hand. I do think that in certain instances, the police weren't harming them, there seemed to be disproportionate number of police necessary for them, which made me want to have my camera in hand, but I gestured so that they knew, “Hey, I'm holding a phone.”
And I think that there's underlying knowledge amongst pretty much everybody now what that means, so I don't have to escalate the situation. And I think that's an important thing to realize, if we're thoughtful about our interactions and the things happening to us, we don't necessarily have to escalate the interactions as much as step in to try to make sure that they are again, reducing harm.
Guy Kawasaki:
Just in case fifteen body cams happen to malfunction simultaneously.
Frederick Joseph:
Exactly. At the exact same time, because it started raining, yeah exactly.
Guy Kawasaki:
So, now I hesitate to ask this question, but I just have to, so what if you were there when George Floyd? And what would you have done?
Frederick Joseph:
It's a difficult question, I've thought about that a lot actually. I've thought about it very deeply because I've been in situations where the police have been overly violent with people, overly violent with me. I'm someone who's a victim of stopping frisk in New York City when I was in college and things like that.
I've thought about it a lot. I don't know, it's hard. It's not a great question, it's hard to say because one part of me wants to say that I would film it and post it online because I have to think, would I be someone who has a platform?
As someone who has a platform, I would film it and be online, but if I see that it's not just about them harming him, it's about them murdering him, so then I'm like, do I charge in and then potentially be murdered myself as well? So, it's a very difficult thing, but at the very least I would've been and filming of course.
Guy Kawasaki:
Okay. So, do you believe in God?
Frederick Joseph:
I believe in a higher power. I grew up in a deeply Christian household. I went to Jesuit colleges. I studied theology actually in college.
And the reason I studied theology was because I wanted to understand what I was trying to not necessarily align with anymore, if that makes any sense? I started learning about various religions.
And at this point I believe there is a God, I think that I think that we lose sight of the power of faith in the nuances of our hatred that we mask as faith. I think that a lot of people who claim to be devout Christians, devout Muslims, devout various religions, don't actually align with their doctrines.
Guy Kawasaki:
That is the freaking understatement of the century.
You write about the big three; capitalists, patriarchal, white supremacists, and the fourth, Christian. You put those four things together, can it get any worse than that? And those four things are often together.
Frederick Joseph:
Those four things are actually the root of the nation, they're literally at the core of this nation. There is no separation of church and state really.
This nation, and being really frank, I was thinking back on how Christianity has been weaponized against people who were enslaved, weaponized against people who were put in internment camps, weaponized against people who are homosexual, weaponized in all these different groups, Christianity's been weaponized against them, so it has to make you at least sit back and think at the very least.
Guy Kawasaki:
The connotation of "evangelical" really has changed in the last few years, not exactly bringing the good word anymore.
Frederick Joseph:
I mean, they're bringing the good word of hatred. It's almost a lot of white Christian evangelicals in this country, at this point, they're sitting in the pew with white pointy robes on, and that's just really what it is.
Guy Kawasaki:
Supporting Putin.
Frederick Joseph:
Supporting Putin, supporting Trump, it really is just, “Oh, we're going to do whatever we can to support white nationalism on a local and global scale”, and that's just the baseline of it.
Guy Kawasaki:
Okay. Did you ever find the video of the class throwing paper into the trash to illustrate what it's like to be black?
Frederick Joseph:
Somebody did find the video.
So, it's funny because it was my first book, I didn't expect anyone to buy the book, that's number one. But when people did buy the book, and people continue to buy the book, and when people do buy your book, people reach out to you, they email you and DM you and so-
Guy Kawasaki:
Interview you.
Frederick Joseph:
So, people honed in on that aspect of the book. And I had at one point maybe like seventy-five emails, is this the video, is this the video? And one person actually did find it, but it was removed from YouTube for some reasons, I think it included students who hadn't agreed to be in a video.
So, they had the video, but they found it on some obscure website. But that was the issue that I didn't realize that we have all these laws about students faces not being able to be shown if they're under a certain age, and it was a freshman class in a college.
Guy Kawasaki:
For the listener who's wondering what the hell video are they talking about? You just have to read the book. It is worth reading the book, just to learn about this video, this professor's experiment with racism and feeling what it's like to be black.
Frederick Joseph:
It's a game-changer, it really is a game-changer.
Guy Kawasaki:
It is a game-changer, it really is.
Frederick Joseph:
I think the world would be a better place if everybody did that same experiment. Your freshman year, maybe not even freshman year of high school, the second you get to high school, make everyone start that same experience and do it with various marginalized communities just to put in perspective for the rest of your life.
Guy Kawasaki:
We're not going to tell you more about that video, if you're intellectually curious, you read the book. If not, then you're a loser.
But anyway, so you go into great lengths about what's wrong with "Not seeing color" Please explain that.
Frederick Joseph:
Yeah. I think that a lot of people assume that racism will just fade away if you somehow reduce people's identities, oh, well we're all just human.
But the reality of it is that racism A, is a systemic thing. Just because you don't want to identify me as black doesn't mean that the world doesn't identify me as black. All you're doing by not identifying me as black is not supporting me basically. If I have a friend who's white and they're like, “Oh, I never saw you as black.” I'm like, well, by doing that, that's pretty bad.
But you'd be surprised Guy, how many people have said that to me? People have read the book and said, “Oh my God, people I went to high school with, oh my God, the entire time we were in high school, I just never thought of you as black.”
And that's so funny because the entire world did and whatever. So, that's one thing. These people are not supporting you by not seeing your race, that's actually doing a complete opposite, it's inherently allowing them to be like no harm, no foul. I don't have to think about it, so I don't have to help if I don't think about it. That's one aspect of it.
But I think the other aspect is, and I write about this, I love being black, and I love my culture. I want to be seen as black because being black is not the same thing as being white, or being Japanese, or being Ecuadorian, or any of these different groups, we all have different cultures and that's important.
So, it's not a matter of erasing and ignoring my culture and my race it's a matter of appreciating my culture and my race. And that's what I ask people to do, I identify that I am black, and then think about what comes along with that both good and bad.
Guy Kawasaki:
There were several instances where I started taking notes, reading your books and I said, what? Most moms or non-black moms don't ever have to do this.
So, I'm going to read you the three that I saw and then you tell me if there's any more so that people listening to this who are not black moms understand what it's like to be a black mom.
So, I figure it out that first, I don't think most moms forced their kids to look at pictures of Emmett Till, number one.
Frederick Joseph:
No.
Guy Kawasaki:
Number two, I don't think most moms have to give the talk.
Frederick Joseph:
No.
Guy Kawasaki:
And then the third story about your mom, which was, oh my God, it's the best story in the book, I think is where your mom told you to go out and get your Pokémon cards back.
Frederick Joseph:
Okay.
Guy Kawasaki:
So, is that what life is like for a black mom?
Because I am neither a mom nor black, but besides that, I can totally understand, what do black moms have to do that non-black moms don't have to do?
Frederick Joseph:
I think that black moms have to always consider the world that they're having their children go out into.
So, you're sending children out into a world that's not going to protect them, it's not going to cuddle them, it's going to be not only harmful, but really dangerous, life threatening.
So, I think to the first example of showing me pictures of Emmett Till, Emmett Till was a little older than me slightly when he was murdered.
And so my mother has to consider that. And that was before there was a Tamir Rice or a Trayvon Martin, so in a world where things like this happened from Emmett Till, to Trayvon Martin, and I'm somewhere in between in terms of years, any black child in this country, in this world can just as easily be one of these young people, so you have to consider that and then do whatever you can to help avoid that. So, that's the first thing as a black mom, I'd say.
The second thing, the talk goes along with the Emmett Till photos and things like that, where it's like, look, the world is going to see you, maybe not everybody, but you have to assume that the world's going to see you as dangerous.
And Guy, I've traveled around this entire world now, I've been to maybe thirty-five countries, and in each of them, people were afraid of me just as a black person walking down the street. I'm about six foot two, I don't know what I weigh now, but I'm a big guy.
But even if I wasn't, people are just afraid of this big black body, this black existence, because there have been spoon-fed this false reality about black people throughout their entire lives.
And I do think even when you look at Rodney King years ago, that wasn't inherently started by a white person, I believe the shop owners were Korean.
Guy Kawasaki:
Korean, yeah.
Frederick Joseph:
Yeah. But that happens because they have been spoon-fed this false sense of black people in their entire lives.
So, my mother had to have this conversation with me about how the world was going to view me, but then more so the police.
So, now you have the world viewing this way, so then what happens when a police officer grows up in that same way, sees black people as dangerous and they have a gun, and they have a legal to use that gun at will because they feel like you're dangerous.
So, that's why that talk is so important.
Frederick Joseph:
And then lastly, I think it's funny, because these are all from different books, but the last point about the Pokémon cards, people have to go read that story, this is where I think it's interesting because my mom specifically was a black mom who had to raise a child in poverty.
So, I not only had to deal with being black, but I had to deal with being poor and so the things that we had meant a lot, because we didn't have much. So, I had to learn an appreciation for that.
And also if people are going to try to take from you, people are going to try to again, harm you, and you have to learn to stand up for yourself. And that lesson was important for me, and not every black mother has to teach it, but that lesson of going out and standing up for myself was a game-changer.
Guy Kawasaki:
How many white moms would tell their kids go out there and get those cards back?
Frederick Joseph:
It's interesting because my manager, great guy, Greg, he's white and I sometimes want to ask him questions like that because I wonder he's a really, really great guy, his mom is a wonderful woman, and I wonder sometimes did you just not have any similarities to me at all?
And sometimes I might have to legitimately ask him because he is a pretty tough guy, he is he also someone who lives with MS as well as a matter of fact, so he's tough in a different way also, but I'm pretty sure if somebody stole his Pokémon cards, he's just like “Oh, that sucks, that's a bad person, keep going.”
But that lesson wasn't about the Pokémon cards for me, it was about, this is what society's going to do to you as a black person.
So, even though these were other little black kids, what are you going to do when it's a white teacher? What are you going to do when it's white police officer, what are you going to do when it's a white executive at a company you're working at so on and so forth. I don't know if that lesson is the same, but I'll have to ask some white people I know.
Guy Kawasaki:
This is going to stretch the bounds of my credibility, but I would really like you to explain, let's call an idea for your next book, Black Culture for White Dummies, let's suppose you write that book.
So, from the outside, looking in as A, obviously I'm not black and I'm not young, but can you just explain to me, and not saying you're representing all black people about this, but there's some people I just do not understand so you're going to take the scales off my eyes and you're going to tell me-
Frederick Joseph:
Sure, go right ahead.
Guy Kawasaki:
WTF is with these people, so Kanye West?
Frederick Joseph:
Oh, you're jumping right in, and you went to the deep side of the pool.
Guy Kawasaki:
I am who I am.
Frederick Joseph:
I think Kanye is the embodiment of a few. I can't speak for Kanye in terms of blackness now because I think that Kanye somewhere along the way actually started being more of a tool of white supremacy. I think Kanye's supported Donald Trump and things like that.
But I also think Kanye has a lot of mental health issues. And I do think that an interesting analysis is that a lot of men, not just black men, but men as a whole were not really taught or given the space oftentimes to actually unpack our pain, and unpack our issues emotionally, and when you don't do that, people become either A, violent B, reclusive, or C, like you said, WTF. And I do think that Kanye's now at WTF. I think his the myriad of things with him are just, I have no clue.
Guy Kawasaki:
Clarence Thomas.
Frederick Joseph:
Oh Jesus Christ, you saved there.
First and foremost, blackness is not a monolith, but there's also a lot of money in being a token, letting people tokenize you for their own agendas, there's money in that.
The existence of Clarence Thomas allows people to validate that they're not being racist at times. Clarence Thomas agrees with us and he's black, so somehow that discredits ten million other black people who are not Clarence Thomas.
So, I think that's his thing, there's a lot of money in it. He's no different than Candace Owens, or certain other people who have very anti-black views on the world.
Guy Kawasaki:
Fred Sanford in his role, in Sanford and sons.
Frederick Joseph:
A favorite show growing up. I think that Fred Sanford stood for the stereotypical trope of a black man during a specific era. I think maybe just a man in general. I think that really Lao, brash, crude hilarious at times, absolutely hilarious, but I think that was how men were portrayed during the time.
I think that he's very similar to the guy from the Honeymooners, and so all these the guy from Love and Marriage and these father figures who are supposed to be manly, funny, not very emotional, like I said, crude. So I think he represents that. And that was the era.
So, he's a black man who was probably just true to the era.
Guy Kawasaki:
Okay. This thing is about a relationship because I just don't know but to make of this, I think is one of the most interesting relationships in the world now, which is, can you guess?
Frederick Joseph:
No, go ahead. Go ahead.
Guy Kawasaki:
Okay. Snoop Dog and Martha Stewart.
Frederick Joseph:
Yeah. That they've been friends now for what? Like twenty years or something. I think it's really interesting because I know-
Guy Kawasaki:
Your publicist didn't prepare you for these questions?
Frederick Joseph:
The funny thing is, because I know Snoop, and I know Snoop is a very eclectic person.
Guy Kawasaki:
That’s an Instagram quote.
Frederick Joseph:
I think it's two people who are highly unlikely who actually have a lot in common. That's the understatement of the year.
But I think that people have more in common than they will ever know. And we get divided based on these surface level things. Like today someone said to me, “What do you do in your free time?” And I'm like “Oh, I've been playing games a lot”, and people are like, “Oh my God, you game?”
I don't just talk about racism, I don't just talk about the patriarch and whatnot.
So, I think maybe Snoop and Martha have something like that where they just both really like weed, I don't really know.
Guy Kawasaki:
Okay. That really just, I'm zooming up to like competency in black culture as I go through this interview. So, I'm going to tell you a story and then you're going to tell me your reaction.
Frederick Joseph:
Okay.
Guy Kawasaki:
So early in my career, oh, not early, mid-career, I lived on union street in San Francisco, union street or dead ends in the Presidio, which is a very nice, basically all white part of San Francisco.
So, I don't want to see me modest, but you've arrived when you live there. So, one day I'm outside and I'm trimming the Boganville hedge, and this older white woman comes up to me and says, “Do you do lawns?”
And I said to her, “So, because I'm Japanese, you think I'm the yard man?” She goes, “No, no, no, it's just, you're doing such a great job that I'm want to know if you do lawns, because I need my lawn done.”
So, but wait, this is not a story about stereotyping, although obviously there's some of that, but where it gets more interesting is two weeks later, my father shows up visits me and I tell him this story.
I'm third generation, he's second generation served in the US army, blah, blah, blah.
So, I tell him this story and I fully expect him to just go off, “How dare this woman and ask you if you're the yardman, you went to Stanford, you worked for Apple, you've written books, blah, blah, blah.” But instead, he says to me, “Son on union street, Japanese American guy cutting the hedge, most likely you were the yardman, so get over it. “
I tell you this story because after reading your books, are you going to send me Guy, your father was wrong, but you should jump down on people's throats, but you should take action, you should get involved, you should rip her for saying that. So, what do you think was my father a wrong?
Frederick Joseph:
I think that there's an in-between.
So, I think that your father for me was wrong, but not in the sense that you had to jump down her throat though. I think that your father, we all into internalize certain things and I'm very honest about this in the Black Friend. I internalized a lot of other people's thoughts about me as a black person, so I was just like, “Call me an Oreo, that's fine.”
Guy Kawasaki:
It's better in a coconut but, okay.
Frederick Joseph:
So, ultimately, we would all be wrong for not better seeing ourselves as more than other people see us.
So, that's where that is. But then in terms of how she should be responded to, I think that people are more uncomfortable with having real dialogue than having people jump down their throats sometimes.
So, I think in that specific situation, a real dialogue being had about what you did was problematic X, Y, and Z, and you could say whatever you want, but if I was a white guy doing the exact same thing, I highly doubt that you would, that conversation might change her more than jumping down her throat.
Jumping down her throat in other instances, if she just said something overtly racist, like a slur, then you're not playing on the same playing field. Now, at that point, there's no human decency, so I view the world through that. What is the playing field that you're playing on?
And then have an appropriate response for that playing field.
Guy Kawasaki:
Okay. My interpretation of what my father told me changed me dramatically, since that day, it's been very hard to insult me, I just take the upper road, I just let it go over my head, which may not be optimal but that was the effect on me.
Next question, so I'm really interested in this concept of appropriation versus appreciation.
Frederick Joseph:
Yeah.
Guy Kawasaki:
And I just want to know, I mean is rap only for black people? If my son puts on a durag is he appropriating your culture? If he wears his baseball hat backwards and has baggy pants, is that appreciation or appropriation?
Frederick Joseph:
So, I think that it always depends on what it is. I think in our society, sometimes we have conversations or think about things we lack nuance.
So, let's use the example of braids, that is a really good example. So, braids specifically have been worn by black people throughout time, especially people who are enslaved because they would hide grains of rice in their braids. And that's one of the reasons that people will wear braids.
So without that context, you're actually taking from something that's a very serious part of somebody's culture that has a legacy of trauma and history and things like that without realizing it.
So, I think that's where you get into the meat and potatoes of situations where, so do you even realize what you're doing? Are you just doing something because it seems popular?
In the same way let's use someone wearing a sari. I have friends who are Southeast Asian and they're just like “Oh yeah, come to my wedding, you got to wear this to sari.” “I'm like okay, cool.”
But I have other friends who are also Southeast Asian, they're like, “That's my culture.”
It's not a costume for someone who's not of the culture to wear. The rule that I always have when it comes to is it appreciation or appropriation because there's two different people on two different sides saying two different things is if it offends anybody, what's the point in doing it?
That's my rule, number one, I don't need to offend anyone. So, I remember a few years ago I was actually really good example. I was doing like a trip through various countries in Asia, and I had bought a kimono.
And so I have bought this kimono and I was looking forward to getting back home and wearing this kimono. But a friend of mine is, we were watching a show and she's looked this white idiot with this kimono on, he doesn't even understand the history of it.
And I'm just like, “Yeah, I might not want to do that because that's where it does become appropriation. I'm actually not invested in the culture. I don't know any history of it, things like that.”
So, I'm very big on historical context, investment in culture, and understanding what you're doing and why you're doing it. So, that's the way I view appropriation versus appropriation.
Guy Kawasaki:
Wait, you were going to come back to New York and walk around New York in your kimono?
Frederick Joseph:
No. I like to relax at home, it was a very nice silky Kimono, so I was going to wear it in the house, listen to some jazz.
Guy Kawasaki:
Now, I want to talk about the N-word. And in the book you say the N-word is not the same as the word cracker. And if you don't understand that read chapter ten.
So, I read chapter ten and I still am not clear, pardon my ignorance?
Frederick Joseph:
No,
Guy Kawasaki:
But can you explain this?
Frederick Joseph:
So, the N word is one of the most harsh slurs in history, because it's aligned and correlated to not only historic trauma, but current trauma. When people have been lynched, they are N words, when people are shot by police, they're N words, when you hear certain things happen, there N words.
The inward reduces your very humanity. Something like the word cracker that's that has no historical context, really, it's not like black people, or Asians or Latinx people, went around lynching white people and being like, “Hey, you take that cracker.”
There's nothing aligned with it, it's not like communities of color have kept white people from getting jobs have been racist in medicine, racist in corporations, racist in this effort and called them crackers like “Oh man, we're not giving that cracker this job, it's just not a real thing.”
There's so much heaviness in history, aligned with the N word that it's almost in this country unlike any other word that exists.
I would actually say in ways, there are certain slurs for even the Jewish community, which are directly aligned to the Holocaust, aligned to some of the atrocities that they've been through, and that's one thing that comes to mind in terms of a similarity in terms of words.
Guy Kawasaki:
So, the basic rule is if you're not black, you literally cannot say it. I could not say it now, if I said it now in this interview, would you be offended?
Frederick Joseph:
If you were not black, I never want to hear it out of a non-black person's mouth in any context whatsoever. I mean, but in my personal opinion it's not just the N-word that I feel that way about, there're slurs that people who are in the LGBTQ plus community use as like terms of endearment for each other.
I'm not a part of that community, I don't even have an opinion knowing it because I'm not a part of the community. So, that's not for me, if you want to call each other, whatever you want to call each other, that's on you.
But to reduce, especially because to be really frank, to use that word, and it's not like we're like 50,000 years post Jim Crow or post certain things. This is literally yesterday, it's not like, “Oh my God, I didn't even know that thing exist, this is still harmful to this day.”
Guy Kawasaki:
Okay. I know the answer to this question, but I'm just curious, so could Eminem rap using the N-word?
Frederick Joseph:
No. Anyway, I think it was a really good example because he never does, Eminem has never once used the N-word in any of his songs. And I think that the laziness sometimes of non-black people, like “Oh, how am I supposed to rap without the N-word?”
I'm like Eminem's one of the greatest rappers of all time has never once said it in a song, so either become a better rapper or stop rapping.
And it boils down to that, there's plenty of people, I'm going to be honest with you Guy, for a long time, I just thought that, how can I put this? In terms of white people? A lot of white people around me growing up were oh my God, why can't I use it this hand third? And I just thought that every white person wanted to use it, and then I met white people as I got older and more recent in the last few years who were just I've never wanted to use that word. And I'm oh, so the people who are just dying to use it, they're the ones there's something wrong with them. I don't know why people are so prone to wanting that word in their vocabulary.
Guy Kawasaki:
So, you talk about braided hair and I got to ask you this question because I've done it a few times. I've seen black women with just beautiful, braided hair, and I've said to them, “I just love your hair.” And is that not acceptable? Is that...
Frederick Joseph:
No, no. I personally, I try not to speak for black women, but I'll give my opinion from the outside looking in. I think that compliments, there's nothing wrong with a compliment.
Now, I'm in the process of growing my hair and some people like when my hair is combed down and stuff and people are like, “Oh my God, you have such like rich hair and this, that.” And I'm like, “Oh thanks, whatever. And I think that's fine. I think it's when people start ogling and treating you like you're in something like in a museum or something like that, “Oh my God, can I touch you?” I'm not side show, I'm just black.
Guy Kawasaki:
I must admit I never gone to a bald white guy and said, I love the baldness.
Frederick Joseph:
I love your baldness, can I just rub your baldness?
Guy Kawasaki:
Yeah. So, I want to know how you interpret the convictions of the murders of Ahmaud Aubrey and George Floyd, is that reason for hope, or tokenism, or thank God there were cameras? Like what's...
Frederick Joseph:
Yeah. I mean, I think for me it's a little bit of everything you said one, I think working backwards if there weren't cameras, I do think that they would've went free.
How many times have we heard about black and brown people being murdered and there's no cameras, and ultimately not thing happens?
We forget history so quickly, my grandmother came up in the time where people would lynch people and literally take pictures and turn them into postcards, but it's lost to the confines.
Guy Kawasaki:
What?
Frederick Joseph:
Yeah, you got to Google that, that's an absolute real thing.
So again, to this point, things get lost to the confines of history so often and I'm afraid that if there weren't body cameras in these different cases, or people rather recording with their cameras, rather that we wouldn't have these convictions that we do have.
Now I do think there's a sign of hope because more people are interested now than ever in the racial dynamics of this in other countries, we wouldn't even be having this conversation if there wasn't an interest in unpacking things like white supremacy and patriarchy and capitalism, so on and so forth.
And so that gives me hope. But ultimately I do think we just, we have a long way to go Guy, we have a really long way to go. But I say it all the time, and I told my little cousin this yesterday, because he was talking whether we can ever be liberated as people of color and black people specifically, we have to have imagination, if we can't imagine it, nobody's going to do it for us.
That's where my hope lies. I imagine a world, and it will be long after I'm gone where these things won't be happening.
Guy Kawasaki:
It's a multiple questions here, but just to get you on the central topic, so do you think it's getting darker before the Dawn? Or this is as dark as it's going to get? And it's the last gasp of white nationalism as the demographic tide prevails? Or do you think this is just going to get worse and worse and worse?
Frederick Joseph:
Oh, that is a really good question. I think it depends on the day that you ask me, today, what I feel like is it can be a last gasp if people keep their foot on the pedal.
I think that if we on doing the things that are necessary, the reason why we are in this moment is because I think white nationalism fills its back against the wall and it's clawing and punching to get off of the ropes.
And when you have somebody on the ropes, you can win the fight, or they can make a comeback.
So as what I think that we're at now when Biden was elected, I think a lot of people saw that as, oh my God, we don't need to care about these things anymore and the world is better.
And then all of a sudden, now you have this like Renaissance of white nationalism in Florida, in Texas, Idaho, and not just white nationalism, but anti-homosexual, and anti-trans legislation and things of that nature.
So, it's up to us now to do the things that are necessary to actually knock it out, truly. And that's going to take generations, it's going to take this conversation we're having here, it's going to take conversations with younger people than you and I, and they're going to have conversations with younger people than they are.
Guy Kawasaki:
A sixty-four million question is, well, so I'm a non-black person listening to this, what should I do? How should I start put, how do I get on this path of being part of the solution not the problem?
I'm a non-black person, but I want to be part of the solution, what do I do? Really practical tactical stuff.
Frederick Joseph:
Yeah. It's a really good question because I think that the advice I would give is the advice I give to myself for whatever communities I don't belong to, is choose to do something every day. I think a lot of people think that change is some type of sprint.
Like “Oh, my God, 2020 happened and the protests, and I'm just super excited, I'm out here, but I don't know how to sustain that”, because that's not sustainable. You're not going to go out every single day and protest it's not going to happen, I'm not doing it, no one's doing that.
So, it's about finding things that lend themselves to being in a marathon.
One of the things I'm doing now for certain trans organizations is making monthly donations for people who do this work every day I have a monthly donation to various organizations.
Or for example, things that are for me, low hanging fruit, I have a platform, I see something wrong, sometimes I'll just raise money for it.
They just passed a bill in Florida where you can no longer talk about sexual orientation and gender identity in school, great.
So, what am I going to do? I'm going to make a GoFundMe and we've already raised $25,000 to help out organizations supporting LGBTQ plus youth. It's just about finding, based on your resources, what you can do. If you don't have the finances, if you don't have a platform, that's fine.
So what can you do is, read an article, send that article out to people in your family. You read my book Guy and you're like, “Oh, I learned a lot about black culture reading your book.”
Then it's up to Guy to say, who else do I think should read this book? Should I give this book to my friend? Should I do this? Should I do that? And it doesn't have to always be monetary in the ways that we support people, you have to find out what your resources are and just do something on a regular basis.
Guy Kawasaki:
Let's say my son and his buddies are now wearing durags, should I pull him and say, “Hey, take them off, this is not your culture, you're appropriating it, you're looking like a dumb shit.” Take them off or?
Frederick Joseph:
One of the beautiful things about this era that we live in, there's literally an article or an opinion about everything out there.
So, you as another person who comes from your community, same as your son, I don't know if your son is mixed or not whatever, but from the same community and it's not a black community, maybe your son is half black for all I know, but I would go find an article that someone has written about the history of durags and present that to your son, and say, “Hey, do this? Because this is why people wear durags, this is why people do certain things, why are you doing it?”
A lot of things that I like to do as a person who's an author, educator, so on and so forth, instead of wagging my finger at people, I like to turn it around on them and ask them questions. “Why are you doing certain things? What was the point in it? And do the history?”
And then people typically will in real time unravel and oh, I guess I don't, and maybe I shouldn't be.
Guy Kawasaki:
But can you just give me the answer, the short?
Frederick Joseph:
Yeah. For me, I personally, as Frederick Joseph don't have an issue with non-black people wearing durags, because I do think that durags also offer hair protection and things of that nature. I think that if you're wearing a durag, along with a whole bunch of other things that are supposed to almost be a caricature of a black person, that's where I have an issue.
If you're in an L.L Bean jacket and you have on a durag, I'm like, whatever, but if you're doing an entire...
Guy Kawasaki:
If you're wearing Birkenstocks and you drive a Prius.
Frederick Joseph:
Right, exactly. But if it’s, “I'm trying to protect my hair”, I'm like, “Great, whatever good for you.”
But if you're, “Oh yeah, I'm wearing this stereotypical black outfit, whatever that is because just like rap ensemble”, and I'm like, “We have an issue now.”
Guy Kawasaki:
Listening to nail it now, really, I've got everything I need, I got more than I need. But I had one thought for you that I don't know, well, just I'll insert foot in the mouth.
So, you talk about allies versus accomplices, and I think, well, I won't tell you what I think, but maybe I will say what I think.
Frederick Joseph:
Please do.
Guy Kawasaki:
I think that using the word accomplice is really tricky because aren't you then playing into the stereotype of black people wearing hoodies and are criminals? Because criminals have accomplices, authors don't have accomplices, and CMOs don't have accomplices, and whatever accomplice, I think it has negative connotations.
So, I just offer you that as sixty-seven-year-old Japanese guy telling you.
Frederick Joseph:
No, it's interesting because I think that one of the things I've seen with the book that has been super interesting is everybody is all over the place in terms of what they think. I get run into schools a lot. I talk to maybe ten schools a week probably and different teachers and administrators and they're versus accomplices, we love that.
And just then other places, I'll go into corporations, and they say, “This feels a little bit much for us.”
So, I think it really depends on the setting. In the future, we'll have to do an AB test. That's what we're going to have to do.
Guy Kawasaki:
Analytics.
Frederick Joseph:
Yeah, I told you MBA mind. So, we'll have to AB test it.
But I hear you, I think that messaging, you know this better than just about anyone in this country, messaging is everything. The art of getting a story into people's hearts is at the core of how you make change, how you get people to buy a product so on and so forth.
So, I do think that even in the subtitle on being a better white person for some people, they're just, “Oh, I'm not picking this book up because it feels uninviting.”
And some people legitimately feel that way, a lot of white people are like, “Oh, well it feels like you're wagging your finger, I mean, you hate white people based your subtitle.”
But then other white people, “I wanted to be better, and I saw that book and I'm just like, well he's being very direct, I can be better by reading this book.”
Guy Kawasaki:
I'm in that group.
Frederick Joseph:
Okay. So, I think it all depends on everything, that's what you and I have to work on next, that's what you and I are going to do, we're going to start AB testing books, we're going to create it. Or I don't know if you remember this type of book where you would be able to choose the direction that you go?
So, what we'll do is we'll have the same chapter, but if you turn to one page, the title will be accomplices, and if you turn to another page, it won't be accomplices, you could decide which way you want to go.
Guy Kawasaki:
To argue against myself, I would say that by self-selection, anyone buys your book and then further sell selection, anyone who reads that far probably is okay to use the word accomplice.
Frederick Joseph:
I think so, but again, it's dual fold. I want the message to reach as many people as possible.
So, I am always interested in tapping into those who are unlikely, the people who are, “Hey, I was never going to finish this. “
Because I do think when you open a book up, unlike many books about race and really difficult topics, it's actually a fun book, it's a fun conversational book.
And again, I do think that book versus let's say Patriarchy Blues, very different books. I think one of them is you're having a beer with me, and the other one is I would call it much more highbrow, it's different.
Guy Kawasaki:
Terry gross versus Guy Kawasaki, I'm telling it.
Frederick Joseph:
Oh boy, oh man.
Guy Kawasaki:
I got to say, one of my theories is that one of the best tells of intelligence is your sense of humor. And Black Friend, oh my God, I don't know, it's politically inappropriate to say that a book about racism made me laugh.
Frederick Joseph:
But that was the intent.
Guy Kawasaki:
It really did.
Frederick Joseph:
That was legitimately the intent. And so you had to make me a deal because you were able to ask to me whatever you wanted under the sun, you have to make me a deal, because I love this conversation.
So, we're going to have to send you the third book, which is similar to the first book, and then we're going to have another conversation in the fall. We're going to have to do that because that book has in it, I think another thing that's a special sauce of the Black Friend it has a bunch of luminaries in it.
We have these brilliant people, so for the next book, not Patriarch, because I went out and got more brilliant people; Elizabeth Warren, Julian Castro, Chelsea Clinton, to talk about things that are across the board, and it's funny, it's direct, it's real, we'll see what you think of that one.
Guy Kawasaki:
Ah, I guarantee you I'll like that.
My absolute last question is, do you think that maybe the single simplest and easiest litmus test for where you are on race is what you thought of the Super Bowl halftime show?
Frederick Joseph:
Oh, I'm going to throw you the curve ball, I think where you are on race really...
Sorry, my puppies back there crying.
So, I think where you are on race is in part dependent upon, did you assess what white people thought of the Super Bowl halftime show?
If you actually went on Twitter and saw how the most overt wingers were talking about it, and you could see, “Oh, this person's racist, that person's racist” Et Cetera.
That's how I would take where you are on race, oh, look at the, there was nothing wrong with this show, how dare they? That's how I would view it.
Guy Kawasaki:
Okay. Because my interpretation was, if you hated that halftime show, you're a racist.
Frederick Joseph:
Well, that's my point. Exactly, so if you were the type of person who could see that anyone who had an issue with it is a racist? Then you're probably doing pretty well.
Guy Kawasaki:
Hey, it's Guy here. I'm editing this episode right now, get ready, the drop the mic moment is coming next.
Okay, I've passed the test. But okay, there's a concept, Frederick, I'm never selling past the clothes so I could just shut up now, but no, I'm not. Well, I can edit this out.
So, but I tell you something, you know what would have been just icing, on top of the icing, on top of the icing of the halftime show?
Frederick Joseph:
What?
Guy Kawasaki:
Is if at the very end, Martha Stewart had walked out, that would've been fantastic.
Frederick Joseph:
No, no, no, no, no, because I will put the icing on top of the icing in the icing and whatnot on what you're saying, if she would've come out, but taken a knee, and said nothing. Just taken a knee…That would've been the end of it, literally the entire country would've sunk into the ocean immediately.
Guy Kawasaki:
There would have to be pieces of brains scrapped off the ceilings. DeSantis, he'd be in Cuba now.
Frederick Joseph:
Exactly. The most un-American thing to ever happen in this country.
Guy Kawasaki:
NFL should call us next year to advise them on their halftime show, we would just...
Frederick Joseph:
Put it out there, I'm saying.
Guy Kawasaki:
If you talk to Snoop Dog, tell him I'd be happy to give him my two cents.
Frederick Joseph:
I got you. I got you.
Guy Kawasaki:
You know something? If I was truly on top of my game when I was doing this interview, I would've said, if you talk to Snoop Dog, tell might be happy to give him Fifty Cent, but I blew it. Ah, I lost that moment.
Oh, if only Martha Stewart had been in the Super Bowl halftime show then, oh, if she'd only come out and taken a knee, that would have been epic, and heads would've exploded.
Nonetheless, Frederick Joseph, what a great interview. I had a fantastic time and I learned so much.
I'm Guy Kawasaki. This is Remarkable People.
Frederick Joseph and I are on our mission to make you remarkable.
My thanks to Peg Fitzpatrick, Shannon Hernandez, Jeff Sieh, Luis Magaña, Alexis Nishimura, and the drop-in queen Madisun Nuismer.
We are all on a mission to make you remarkable.
Until next time, Mahalo and Aloha.